[When you are used to living underground and needing to find ways to have space when you weren't strong enough to risk going outside alone, you make space where you can and deal with having less.]
[So when there's the option to have as much as he wants without having to hide, and to have space to stretch his legs, and not have to skimp on anything because they're all quest fiends?]
[(And maybe illegal activities.)]
[Well, it was nice to just have at it. To have all the things to make life comfortable and enjoyable.]
[After about sixty seconds, there is a beep on the tablet and Cole may catch the big flashing arrow on it pointing right at him.]
[Donnie blinks and looks up.] Oh! You're here. You should have said something.
[This is what he uses the tech for. To compensate for his hyperfocus.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Cole's taken the opposite path, content with just the things similar to what he lost, or whatever tiny space that he can make for himself. It's a huge adjustment.
The arrow pointing at him is uncomfortable enough to rankled the deeply ingrained tendency to avoid direct notice in unsafe situations. Not that this is unsafe. But it's just uncomfortable enough to hit that. He doesn't react to the feeling whatsoever though.]
...you looked busy, so it would've been rude.
[He offers a shrug and, just not having seen the point to interrupting in this case.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[This is why he has the arrows. He Knows Himself.]
[He turns the tablet over.]
Depending on the context of this conversation, I may prune some plants. Busy hands help when problem solving. I will be listening, I have been told it can be difficult to tell.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Ignoring me probably just would've have made things worse. Hopefully you'll get why in a second.
[He's committed to this, even though it already feels like standing on a cliff.]
I'm here to talk about your approach to things with especially MK, the hardship it helped leave me with, and the anger I'm feeling because of it. I'd rather not, but here we are.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That was more so you are aware how I operate. Donnie hyperfocuses so he needs to be made aware of your presence. If its genuinely important, he will not respond at all, and then you must decide if your thing is important enough to push.
[He likes being clear.]
[Though that gets him to stare.]
My approach with MK? That was months ago....?
[But now he's tapping at the table. One. Two. Four. Eight. Sixteen. Back to one.]
Why did you wait months?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And the amount of effort it's taking me to just sit here and do this is why I'm giving you fair warning that it probably would have made things worse.
[He takes a slow breath.]
I only found out about any of it a couple of months ago, because MK was left thinking that he deserved every level of what was happening and had no right to talk to anyone about anything connected to that whole mess. And once I did find out, I was planning to keep my feelings about that knowledge to myself.
But I promised I would talk to you, so I'm here.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
BOSS, dad proof. [He stands up as metal moves down along the walls, with Autumn power pouring in, and he goes to pick up the pruning shears, moving along the plants to start working or else he was going to have a panic attack.]
[His face is very blank because brain to face is Hard.]
[His voice was has gone from monotone to outright flat.]
[Don't panic. It may not be like literally Every Other Time This Has Happened.]
Dad proof is so Macaque isn't stressed. That's all.
Just say why you're mad.
I'm terrible at subtext. Say what you mean. Don't beat around the bush. That doesn't do anyone any favors.
Yell, scream, I suppose you could hit me if you want, but that may hurt you more than me.
But I don't...
If this becomes a game, I cannot fix anything. I will likely only break it worse.
[It may not be like Literally Every Other Time. Try to believe. Try to believe.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I'm not going to yell or anything like that. I understand that you were angry at MK for Korone. I don't need to know the details of that to understand that what MK did was extreme. But I have a problem with you going villain mode on him instead of even attempting to reach out or to ask anyone to mediate. And I'm mad, because some of what you told him really messed him up. I've spent nearly the last year trying to help him all by myself, while fighting my own mind breaking, and trying to convince my family to communicate. Because they're all I really have.
And even if Macaque has a point that it wasn't your job to consider the damage that your stunt could do to people around it, I was hurt and left to suffer by myself with no idea why I've been suffering and why the life I've made here was falling apart no matter what I did. That's a fact, and I'm angry about it, because it was too far. I can start fighting through some of it finally, really start helping.
And I didn't want to talk about any of it. Because it's not something to fix, to make up for, or is even that important.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[....well, that lot was confusing in a lot of ways.]
There are several points there I wish address, and I cannot do it all at once, because that is too much for my brain to get the words to my mouth in a coherent way.
First, clarification.
I wasn't just angry at MK for Choco. Choco would have been very, very, two very's, angry if I did all that solely because I was mad for her sake. Choco appreciates our protectiveness, but she hates having things decided for her.
It was part of my anger.
But a big part was MK lied to me.
[He's still pruning the plants, not looking at Cole.]
When people pretend they like me, then inevitably, its other people who get hurt. Not because I get hurt, but because I let down my guard, because when I trust, I struggle to do any less than one hundred percent. If I trust someone, I don't plan for them to do something bad.
Its almost gotten my family killed. More than once.
Because I have the bullshit detector of a wet rag.
MK was pretending to like me. He didn't. Choco got hurt. Macaque got hurt. I didn't have any plans for what would happen if MK went off the rails because why would I, he likes us?
But the most kind interpretation of MK's lying was he did not wish to make his emotional issues someone else's problem.
There could be no mediator.
MK would lie if there was one.
He attacked Choco. He had no reason to. All things being equal, Choco is a delight and has no reason to be attacked, while I can be quite abrasive.
But I hurt his mate. While not intended, I did.
Any conversation with MK meant taking the risk he would lash out at me. At best, I put it as fifty/fifty. The only chance I have against MK is being prepared for him. And I had to be prepared.
I had to be angry.
I had to be abrasive.
In a setting I could control and monitor because if MK ever hurt me in the future, it may not be a fixable problem. At least if he hurt me then, I could put him under, and we could pretend it didn't happen, and I could just set up all the contingencies necessary to make sure it didn't happen so Macaque's heart wasn't broken. Maybe work things out with MK. It depended how the talk went. But I needed to know what I was dealing with.
I can't when I'm being lied to.
So I needed a heated confrontation with him where Macaque couldn't interfere because I had to know if MK could genuinely check himself in the future. Otherwise it would always be a question of when, not if.
Because his word would never be enough.
He lied once.
And I can never take the risk of trusting only his words ever again.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I'm going to be honest. I don't care about most of the details you just gave. I don't need a specific reason spelled out on your anger or feeling betrayed. Or have it spelled out that Korone was hurt for no good reason. Not because I don't think it matters, because it does, but because it doesn't change what happened. It was still too far.
And none of you feeling like you had to take such extreme measures changes the fact that you didn't explore your other options first, because there were other options. You didn't check to see if anyone who knew him could call MK out if he tried to lie to you or lock him out of being able to lie at all if that wasn't enough, or anyone who could otherwise keep him from lashing out. You did what you did by choice, and your actions helped cause him lasting harm that I've had to suffer through. Alone. Again.
[He's just watching Donnie evenly at the moment. No extreme anger, no raised voice or anything of the sort.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It changes context. Being angry at someone for someone else's sake is only allowed to the extent the person hurt would allow it. There is a level of removal.
My deciding how much MK should be punished for Choco's sake would not be fair to Choco unless she wanted me to give the punishments.
But he hurt me. So I had my own anger. And I would not deal with being lied to again. The most benefit of a doubt I could afford him pointed to a mediator being counterproductive.
Side note, you should talk to someone else about being locked out of lying. Because that sounds like a slippery slope thing that most people would give me a look about, and I have been told I shouldn't think of those kind of things to solve my problems even if they would be easier. [That is actually a sign of his improvement, to NOT subjugate other's will.]
I made the situation where he could be most honest with me and pushed him. I made it clear I wanted him to be honest. I didn't want his catered words and bitten back retorts.
I wanted him angry.
Because then I would know how much of a threat he would be to my family and me.
And yet, even with all that...and everything I did with Relius.
He's lying. [He's stopped pruning, staring at the flowers in front of him.]
Again.
[There is a slight tremor to the ground.]
[He breathes in.]
[Let's it out.]
Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will talk to MK.
Alone.
He deserves a chance to be honest when confronted, but that is something to deal with MK about. I'm not going to apologize to you about my fight with MK.
You have no reason to take my side, but its also why an apology to you doesn't mean anything. You should be biased for MK. But having a fight with MK doesn't mean I've wronged you. Just like MK didn't owe me an apology for hurting Choco.
What I am taking out of all that for MK is I need to talk to him again and see if he really hates me that much.
That would be point two. There is still point three.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It doesn't change the context, it just means I wasn't clear. When I said angry for Korone, I meant angry about what happened because you were hurt too.
And I don't think he is lying. He's taken it all in as it being good now because you were also trying to help him in the end and you came to an understanding, and were entitled to take it in the direction you did. He's being honest that it's something he doesn't want me to be this upset over because you two are in a better place. So no, he doesn't hate you in the slightest. But feel free to check that with him. I'm not here to get between you.
I'm also not looking for anything but for you to understand that this is the second time that your actions have led to me being seriously hurt now. I would say that you took it too far just as quickly even if I had no connection to MK whatsoever and no matter who you forced off the street for this. So don't bring taking sides into this. It's about your actions crippling my life and leaving me with nowhere to turn to deal with it as a...casualty, or...collateral. I'm doing this because Macaque doesn't want me keeping my feelings to myself, because he hopes I'll come away less angry and for no other reason or outcome.
But go on.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You seem to be very judgemental of a fight where you thought it was just because I was angry at MK for Choco, which seemed to be what you DID mean at first? Because if you knew I was also hurt for being lied to, separate from Choco, it seems odd to put the emphasis on that part when talking about this.
You do see how it sounds like you thought I was just angry about Choco, right?
But it does seem odd to be putting a lot of weight on me hurting Macaque, which is fair and valid because I am at fault, and my hurting MK which is less fair and valid because he did start that when you're also very dismissive about it.
Its just...
[He waves a hand in the air.]
You seem to be attempting to scold me about not being...empathetic?
But you are acting like what I went through did not matter, while saying the same thing I went through is crippling your life.
And yes, I do know it hurts to see your loved ones hurt.
But also its a lot of contradictions I am not parsing out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Because you're being literal. You basically summed up what happened to Korone as also hurting you because it proved that MK lied to you and that hurt incredibly. Am I misreading that just because I'm not spelling it out completely? MK hurt Korone in a horrific way that proved he was breaking your trust the whole time.
I already said I'm not dismissing the impact on you, it just doesn't change the impact on me or the fact that it was too much and too far. Since Macaque insists I'm worth talking about this for. The impact on you is no less important, it's a different topic. And if we want to be that specific, Macaque is the one who started all of this and we wouldn't be here at all if he'd avoided the biggest thing I warned him against.
I'm scolding you for thinking you had the only proper way to handle things and being unwilling to acknowledge that you did damage on a level that wasn't needed. Not for your lack of empathy. That's a different deal.
[Donnie comparing their situations causes him to stare at the turtle long and hard for a moment before speaking again.]
Donnie, do you rely on anyone in your family for pure survival? Can you function and take care of yourself properly without them? Can you literally feel their suffering in the air and taste and breathe it? So the air in the place that is supposed to be safe for you is thick with fear and misery that you can't do anything about, so you just live in it with no escape because this is your place? Does your mind break to the point you may never wake up if those connections that make up your life are damaged too much? Not choose not to wake up, to be so literally damaged that you physically can't be conscious anymore because reality has shattered too much and your perception can't take it? Are these things that you risk? Real questions, because I came here to be honest. And if those are the risks from the pain MK caused you, then I'm sorry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I am literal, but even I think its misleading to go 'you were angry at someone for hurting someone' and assume that also accounts 'because that means they were also lying to you.' Do neurotypicals not think that's a leap? Because it sounds like a leap.
[There is a long pause.]
....I mean.
Short answer? Yes.
There is no way to explain that isn't a traumadump.
Part is mystic powers that mean I feel when they die.
As the...temple showed... [His eyes grown distant.]
[There is a larger rumble on his feet and he shakes his head, squeezing his eyes shut. Breathes in deep. Let's it out. The earth stills]
Choco and Eve have been paramount in my continued functionality. Macaque had taken some of the load, but...
But I cannot function long alone.
I have known that....for a very long time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I have no idea what that means besides typical. But I know I'm not typical, so probably not? All I know is I came in with the mind that you were angry, and what happened to Korone was the starting point. Didn't mean it was the end point or even the big point. If she wasn't hurt, we almost definitely wouldn't be here. Right?
Well take your three people and subtract two, because Macaque until recently hasn't really been around because he thought I was telling him I didn't want him at home when I told him I don't want my nightmares to be why he's there instead of with his other loved ones. So I had only MK for touch energy, for healthy food, to manage my nightmares so I don't turn into a monster, for companionship, to and to save me from my coma, and to be ready to do it again while I recovered. And I was forced to live in his pain for that entire time and do nothing for it while I tried to find reality again, while trying to be an adult when I don't know how to do much of anything, and trying to be comfortable being touched by anyone else since I need to survive while trying to help MK through his touch aversion. Among other things. And every day my first ever home felt like wading through misery because I can feel the emotions in the air and they were just...there now.
And if you understand what that's like, then you also know how helpless and exposes I was. And how scared because I couldn't understand what was actually happening to rip away everything that I needed. And you should be able to understand why that makes me angry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Neurotypical means usual mental processes. I am highly neurodivergent, which means my brain is wired different so I perceive things differently.
....and yes, I am aware, mutant turtle means there is no typical wiring, but our behaviors are close enough to human to use them as a basis, especially as my functions are different from my brothers.
The whole wet rag situation is because I literally cannot see whatever these vibes are that people see when they peg someone as lying. I can follow when stories don't make sense. But if someone keeps their story straight, I have no chance.
As for MK's lies, those were always going to come out. He was too resentful and not dealing with his feelings and I have yet to see that not explode one way or the other, especially as I am grating. I suppose you could argue there is a timeline where he doesn't give up his resentment, Relius happens, and he doesn't reveal his anger while being puppetted and Heart Game, and he's so grateful that we helped all his resentment vanished, but that is a very serious roll of the dice. Especially with how much he doesn't like himself.
So ultimately, we would be here in some form.
...
Well.
That is the nightmare.
[He gets the nightmare. He does. The problem is how does he show he understand that? Because he's had times like that.]
[Like when he was with Relius, unable to reach out to the others, and had to shut down the Ninpo hardcore because if it was open, they would arrive and he couldn't help. How his only functionality came from focusing on the job.]
[Or his childhood, when Splinter was suffering from his own demons and how not even dense Donnie could miss the stress of everyone around him during the bad times, and how the moment he realized his genius, he worked and worked and worked to make their home not just a place to survive in, but a place to LIVE in, where winters weren't scary, and where he could get packages delivered, and where they were comfortable.]
[Or in the temple where he felt on the verge of panic at any second, how he attached to people quickly, because he felt like he was sinking into quicksand otherwise. How much Hunter and Shirou and Ed had helped him find some means for gasping breaths until Leo showed up and dragged him from the sinkhole.]
[(Then he got in a fight with Ed and things never felt like they ever recovered and he was treated coldly by others for a misunderstanding that he fixed, but that's never good enough, he isn't good enough for these matters)-]
[He shakes his head.]
Are you...trying to fix that? Because you should.
The process is hard, but its a dangerous game to not try.
It....
You need back up in these matters.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Oh. Well I'm a Lost. I lost the ability to think normally when I was dragged into a knothole...almost 14 years ago? Yeah. A turtle could be as typical or not in my world as anything else, so you being one wasn't even a thought.
And, you might be right, but I might have also had more luck convincing them to trust each other more, since that was a root of the problem. It's a maybe, but not where we were.
[Luckily, the look on Donnie's face and the shift into being able to pick up the shifts in his emotions is enough and Cole softens, more satisfied now.]
If you mean Macaque, we're working on it. Especially on trust. If you mean anything else, then there's not really anything I can do about the rest. So I just deal.
There are only two people in this world who understand the problems I'm dealing with, and that's because they're from my world and deal with my Keeper. My owner, in case that wasn't clear. And MK is the only one who has the power to enter my mind if I go under, so he's the only one who can help me if I get there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Turtles are very much not typical in my world, at least for the part we lived in. There's a Hidden City part of the world, but the mad scientist who created us to be supersoldiers for his plans to exterminate all of humanity lived there, so dad thought it was safer to just hide in the human world. We could run away from most humans, Draxum would have been a lot harder when we were young.
There wasn't a problem of trust between Choco and MK?
[Wait.] You mean Macaque and MK?
Unlikely. You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge a problem. [And MK wasn't acknowledging it.]
...you can? You can get more people. I know it can be very difficult, but it can be done. If I can make friends, a quiet kid like you should make plenty. And people are generally okay with learning touch boundaries if you're upfront. I have touch issues all the time, and communicating it solves the problem usually.
[He hisses at the word owner.] Ah....another to put on The List. [Please excuse the murderous rage. He has heard about Owners before and he is not a fan.]
And do you mean MK's Autumn power or is it something else MK does?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I get that. I'll be running from Huntsmen the rest of my life. I'm sorry that's your situation though.
MK and Macaque. Macaque especially has been resistant to putting his trust in MK, even before the surgery. And taking a different approach. And MK has been afraid to mess up and fail Macaque, so he wouldn't really push for anything and tried to do as he thought Macaque wanted. So the things they were afraid of have been happening and making things worse.
I'm not planning to on purpose. That leads to them being hurt. Especially a good friend. It just happens sometimes. Friendship. [He notices and his face immediately goes back to that "Right, life sucks" expression he often has.] On that note, don't bother yourself with her because it's not worth it.
I mean that and the fact I can trust him there without question, even if he fails at first.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
We did solve the Draxum situation. He almost died trying to commit genocide and then Mikey bullied him into a redemption arc. Now the big concern if the EPF because I don't love a government agency with that much xenophobia in their manuals and the fact they have Sister Kraang [and boy that is some Complex Emotions because there is fear, hatred, and yet a strange undercurrent of...its not quite Love, but adjacent in his emotions] in storage.
That's why communication is important, but communication is a two sided coin. If they're not both willing to be uncomfortable and work through it at the same time, things won't go well.
And its kind of...
Arrogant?
To assume you could have solved their issues for them with a few extra months when MK's resentment was deep enough to attack Choco like that.
You can't solve people's emotional issues for them. You can give advice and support, but its their problem to solve. Its why when Choco helps me navigate a difficult emotional conversation, she doesn't have it for me, she helps me understand the things I don't understand gives suggestion, but its still up to me to talk to the person and figure things out with them.
You're not planning to on purpose? You're planning on not having a support network? [He looks at Cole with a frown at that.]
I decide what is and isn't worth my time.
Ah, the trust is a problem. I was going to offer I have experience. Strangely, its easier to figure out the emotions in things like Hearts and Dreams. I think because there's no filter. Its easier to read the extreme than what finally gets filtered through. [Also he's willing to get into E V E R Y T H I N G so he understood what he was doing.]
Edited 2025-03-17 09:41 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Sounds complicated. [Right up there with being God's target. And those are some complicated feelings alright.]
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Edited 2025-03-17 09:54 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Its still a roll of the dice, especially since his attacking Choco didn't directly tie to Relius targeting him. Between how messed up he was and the Heart Game, there was little chance it would not have come out and that betrayal happened.
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Edited 2025-03-17 10:04 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
No, it would have been the case of MK finding the like for you that he wanted for real. There's a difference between that and truly hating someone, just like you can absolutely despise someone and still love them dearly...and want the hate to not be there. Speaking from experience in one part wanting a family member to kick rocks and the other part of me never wanting him to disappear on me even though he's awful.
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
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othellovonryan) wrote2033-10-23 10:05 pm
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[So when there's the option to have as much as he wants without having to hide, and to have space to stretch his legs, and not have to skimp on anything because they're all quest fiends?]
[(And maybe illegal activities.)]
[Well, it was nice to just have at it. To have all the things to make life comfortable and enjoyable.]
[After about sixty seconds, there is a beep on the tablet and Cole may catch the big flashing arrow on it pointing right at him.]
[Donnie blinks and looks up.] Oh! You're here. You should have said something.
[This is what he uses the tech for. To compensate for his hyperfocus.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
The arrow pointing at him is uncomfortable enough to rankled the deeply ingrained tendency to avoid direct notice in unsafe situations. Not that this is unsafe. But it's just uncomfortable enough to hit that. He doesn't react to the feeling whatsoever though.]
...you looked busy, so it would've been rude.
[He offers a shrug and, just not having seen the point to interrupting in this case.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Otherwise I will likely just not notice you.
[This is why he has the arrows. He Knows Himself.]
[He turns the tablet over.]
Depending on the context of this conversation, I may prune some plants. Busy hands help when problem solving. I will be listening, I have been told it can be difficult to tell.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[He's committed to this, even though it already feels like standing on a cliff.]
I'm here to talk about your approach to things with especially MK, the hardship it helped leave me with, and the anger I'm feeling because of it. I'd rather not, but here we are.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[He likes being clear.]
[Though that gets him to stare.]
My approach with MK? That was months ago....?
[But now he's tapping at the table. One. Two. Four. Eight. Sixteen. Back to one.]
Why did you wait months?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[He takes a slow breath.]
I only found out about any of it a couple of months ago, because MK was left thinking that he deserved every level of what was happening and had no right to talk to anyone about anything connected to that whole mess. And once I did find out, I was planning to keep my feelings about that knowledge to myself.
But I promised I would talk to you, so I'm here.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Tap tap.]
[Tap tap tap tap.]
BOSS, dad proof. [He stands up as metal moves down along the walls, with Autumn power pouring in, and he goes to pick up the pruning shears, moving along the plants to start working or else he was going to have a panic attack.]
[His face is very blank because brain to face is Hard.]
[His voice was has gone from monotone to outright flat.]
[Don't panic. It may not be like literally Every Other Time This Has Happened.]
Dad proof is so Macaque isn't stressed. That's all.
Just say why you're mad.
I'm terrible at subtext. Say what you mean. Don't beat around the bush. That doesn't do anyone any favors.
Yell, scream, I suppose you could hit me if you want, but that may hurt you more than me.
But I don't...
If this becomes a game, I cannot fix anything. I will likely only break it worse.
[It may not be like Literally Every Other Time. Try to believe. Try to believe.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And even if Macaque has a point that it wasn't your job to consider the damage that your stunt could do to people around it, I was hurt and left to suffer by myself with no idea why I've been suffering and why the life I've made here was falling apart no matter what I did. That's a fact, and I'm angry about it, because it was too far. I can start fighting through some of it finally, really start helping.
And I didn't want to talk about any of it. Because it's not something to fix, to make up for, or is even that important.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There are several points there I wish address, and I cannot do it all at once, because that is too much for my brain to get the words to my mouth in a coherent way.
First, clarification.
I wasn't just angry at MK for Choco. Choco would have been very, very, two very's, angry if I did all that solely because I was mad for her sake. Choco appreciates our protectiveness, but she hates having things decided for her.
It was part of my anger.
But a big part was MK lied to me.
[He's still pruning the plants, not looking at Cole.]
When people pretend they like me, then inevitably, its other people who get hurt. Not because I get hurt, but because I let down my guard, because when I trust, I struggle to do any less than one hundred percent. If I trust someone, I don't plan for them to do something bad.
Its almost gotten my family killed. More than once.
Because I have the bullshit detector of a wet rag.
MK was pretending to like me. He didn't. Choco got hurt. Macaque got hurt. I didn't have any plans for what would happen if MK went off the rails because why would I, he likes us?
But the most kind interpretation of MK's lying was he did not wish to make his emotional issues someone else's problem.
There could be no mediator.
MK would lie if there was one.
He attacked Choco. He had no reason to. All things being equal, Choco is a delight and has no reason to be attacked, while I can be quite abrasive.
But I hurt his mate. While not intended, I did.
Any conversation with MK meant taking the risk he would lash out at me. At best, I put it as fifty/fifty. The only chance I have against MK is being prepared for him. And I had to be prepared.
I had to be angry.
I had to be abrasive.
In a setting I could control and monitor because if MK ever hurt me in the future, it may not be a fixable problem. At least if he hurt me then, I could put him under, and we could pretend it didn't happen, and I could just set up all the contingencies necessary to make sure it didn't happen so Macaque's heart wasn't broken. Maybe work things out with MK. It depended how the talk went. But I needed to know what I was dealing with.
I can't when I'm being lied to.
So I needed a heated confrontation with him where Macaque couldn't interfere because I had to know if MK could genuinely check himself in the future. Otherwise it would always be a question of when, not if.
Because his word would never be enough.
He lied once.
And I can never take the risk of trusting only his words ever again.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And none of you feeling like you had to take such extreme measures changes the fact that you didn't explore your other options first, because there were other options. You didn't check to see if anyone who knew him could call MK out if he tried to lie to you or lock him out of being able to lie at all if that wasn't enough, or anyone who could otherwise keep him from lashing out. You did what you did by choice, and your actions helped cause him lasting harm that I've had to suffer through. Alone. Again.
[He's just watching Donnie evenly at the moment. No extreme anger, no raised voice or anything of the sort.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
My deciding how much MK should be punished for Choco's sake would not be fair to Choco unless she wanted me to give the punishments.
But he hurt me. So I had my own anger. And I would not deal with being lied to again. The most benefit of a doubt I could afford him pointed to a mediator being counterproductive.
Side note, you should talk to someone else about being locked out of lying. Because that sounds like a slippery slope thing that most people would give me a look about, and I have been told I shouldn't think of those kind of things to solve my problems even if they would be easier. [That is actually a sign of his improvement, to NOT subjugate other's will.]
I made the situation where he could be most honest with me and pushed him. I made it clear I wanted him to be honest. I didn't want his catered words and bitten back retorts.
I wanted him angry.
Because then I would know how much of a threat he would be to my family and me.
And yet, even with all that...and everything I did with Relius.
He's lying. [He's stopped pruning, staring at the flowers in front of him.]
Again.
[There is a slight tremor to the ground.]
[He breathes in.]
[Let's it out.]
Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will talk to MK.
Alone.
He deserves a chance to be honest when confronted, but that is something to deal with MK about. I'm not going to apologize to you about my fight with MK.
You have no reason to take my side, but its also why an apology to you doesn't mean anything. You should be biased for MK. But having a fight with MK doesn't mean I've wronged you. Just like MK didn't owe me an apology for hurting Choco.
What I am taking out of all that for MK is I need to talk to him again and see if he really hates me that much.
That would be point two. There is still point three.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And I don't think he is lying. He's taken it all in as it being good now because you were also trying to help him in the end and you came to an understanding, and were entitled to take it in the direction you did. He's being honest that it's something he doesn't want me to be this upset over because you two are in a better place. So no, he doesn't hate you in the slightest. But feel free to check that with him. I'm not here to get between you.
I'm also not looking for anything but for you to understand that this is the second time that your actions have led to me being seriously hurt now. I would say that you took it too far just as quickly even if I had no connection to MK whatsoever and no matter who you forced off the street for this. So don't bring taking sides into this. It's about your actions crippling my life and leaving me with nowhere to turn to deal with it as a...casualty, or...collateral. I'm doing this because Macaque doesn't want me keeping my feelings to myself, because he hopes I'll come away less angry and for no other reason or outcome.
But go on.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You do see how it sounds like you thought I was just angry about Choco, right?
But it does seem odd to be putting a lot of weight on me hurting Macaque, which is fair and valid because I am at fault, and my hurting MK which is less fair and valid because he did start that when you're also very dismissive about it.
Its just...
[He waves a hand in the air.]
You seem to be attempting to scold me about not being...empathetic?
But you are acting like what I went through did not matter, while saying the same thing I went through is crippling your life.
And yes, I do know it hurts to see your loved ones hurt.
But also its a lot of contradictions I am not parsing out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I already said I'm not dismissing the impact on you, it just doesn't change the impact on me or the fact that it was too much and too far. Since Macaque insists I'm worth talking about this for. The impact on you is no less important, it's a different topic. And if we want to be that specific, Macaque is the one who started all of this and we wouldn't be here at all if he'd avoided the biggest thing I warned him against.
I'm scolding you for thinking you had the only proper way to handle things and being unwilling to acknowledge that you did damage on a level that wasn't needed. Not for your lack of empathy. That's a different deal.
[Donnie comparing their situations causes him to stare at the turtle long and hard for a moment before speaking again.]
Donnie, do you rely on anyone in your family for pure survival? Can you function and take care of yourself properly without them? Can you literally feel their suffering in the air and taste and breathe it? So the air in the place that is supposed to be safe for you is thick with fear and misery that you can't do anything about, so you just live in it with no escape because this is your place? Does your mind break to the point you may never wake up if those connections that make up your life are damaged too much? Not choose not to wake up, to be so literally damaged that you physically can't be conscious anymore because reality has shattered too much and your perception can't take it? Are these things that you risk? Real questions, because I came here to be honest. And if those are the risks from the pain MK caused you, then I'm sorry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[There is a long pause.]
....I mean.
Short answer? Yes.
There is no way to explain that isn't a traumadump.
Part is mystic powers that mean I feel when they die.
As the...temple showed... [His eyes grown distant.]
[There is a larger rumble on his feet and he shakes his head, squeezing his eyes shut. Breathes in deep. Let's it out. The earth stills]
Choco and Eve have been paramount in my continued functionality. Macaque had taken some of the load, but...
But I cannot function long alone.
I have known that....for a very long time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Well take your three people and subtract two, because Macaque until recently hasn't really been around because he thought I was telling him I didn't want him at home when I told him I don't want my nightmares to be why he's there instead of with his other loved ones. So I had only MK for touch energy, for healthy food, to manage my nightmares so I don't turn into a monster, for companionship, to and to save me from my coma, and to be ready to do it again while I recovered. And I was forced to live in his pain for that entire time and do nothing for it while I tried to find reality again, while trying to be an adult when I don't know how to do much of anything, and trying to be comfortable being touched by anyone else since I need to survive while trying to help MK through his touch aversion. Among other things. And every day my first ever home felt like wading through misery because I can feel the emotions in the air and they were just...there now.
And if you understand what that's like, then you also know how helpless and exposes I was. And how scared because I couldn't understand what was actually happening to rip away everything that I needed. And you should be able to understand why that makes me angry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
....and yes, I am aware, mutant turtle means there is no typical wiring, but our behaviors are close enough to human to use them as a basis, especially as my functions are different from my brothers.
The whole wet rag situation is because I literally cannot see whatever these vibes are that people see when they peg someone as lying. I can follow when stories don't make sense. But if someone keeps their story straight, I have no chance.
As for MK's lies, those were always going to come out. He was too resentful and not dealing with his feelings and I have yet to see that not explode one way or the other, especially as I am grating. I suppose you could argue there is a timeline where he doesn't give up his resentment, Relius happens, and he doesn't reveal his anger while being puppetted and Heart Game, and he's so grateful that we helped all his resentment vanished, but that is a very serious roll of the dice. Especially with how much he doesn't like himself.
So ultimately, we would be here in some form.
...
Well.
That is the nightmare.
[He gets the nightmare. He does. The problem is how does he show he understand that? Because he's had times like that.]
[Like when he was with Relius, unable to reach out to the others, and had to shut down the Ninpo hardcore because if it was open, they would arrive and he couldn't help. How his only functionality came from focusing on the job.]
[Or his childhood, when Splinter was suffering from his own demons and how not even dense Donnie could miss the stress of everyone around him during the bad times, and how the moment he realized his genius, he worked and worked and worked to make their home not just a place to survive in, but a place to LIVE in, where winters weren't scary, and where he could get packages delivered, and where they were comfortable.]
[Or in the temple where he felt on the verge of panic at any second, how he attached to people quickly, because he felt like he was sinking into quicksand otherwise. How much Hunter and Shirou and Ed had helped him find some means for gasping breaths until Leo showed up and dragged him from the sinkhole.]
[(Then he got in a fight with Ed and things never felt like they ever recovered and he was treated coldly by others for a misunderstanding that he fixed, but that's never good enough, he isn't good enough for these matters)-]
[He shakes his head.]
Are you...trying to fix that? Because you should.
The process is hard, but its a dangerous game to not try.
It....
You need back up in these matters.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And, you might be right, but I might have also had more luck convincing them to trust each other more, since that was a root of the problem. It's a maybe, but not where we were.
[Luckily, the look on Donnie's face and the shift into being able to pick up the shifts in his emotions is enough and Cole softens, more satisfied now.]
If you mean Macaque, we're working on it. Especially on trust. If you mean anything else, then there's not really anything I can do about the rest. So I just deal.
There are only two people in this world who understand the problems I'm dealing with, and that's because they're from my world and deal with my Keeper. My owner, in case that wasn't clear. And MK is the only one who has the power to enter my mind if I go under, so he's the only one who can help me if I get there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There wasn't a problem of trust between Choco and MK?
[Wait.] You mean Macaque and MK?
Unlikely. You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge a problem. [And MK wasn't acknowledging it.]
...you can? You can get more people. I know it can be very difficult, but it can be done. If I can make friends, a quiet kid like you should make plenty. And people are generally okay with learning touch boundaries if you're upfront. I have touch issues all the time, and communicating it solves the problem usually.
[He hisses at the word owner.] Ah....another to put on The List. [Please excuse the murderous rage. He has heard about Owners before and he is not a fan.]
And do you mean MK's Autumn power or is it something else MK does?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK and Macaque. Macaque especially has been resistant to putting his trust in MK, even before the surgery. And taking a different approach. And MK has been afraid to mess up and fail Macaque, so he wouldn't really push for anything and tried to do as he thought Macaque wanted. So the things they were afraid of have been happening and making things worse.
I'm not planning to on purpose. That leads to them being hurt. Especially a good friend. It just happens sometimes. Friendship. [He notices and his face immediately goes back to that "Right, life sucks" expression he often has.] On that note, don't bother yourself with her because it's not worth it.
I mean that and the fact I can trust him there without question, even if he fails at first.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That's why communication is important, but communication is a two sided coin. If they're not both willing to be uncomfortable and work through it at the same time, things won't go well.
And its kind of...
Arrogant?
To assume you could have solved their issues for them with a few extra months when MK's resentment was deep enough to attack Choco like that.
You can't solve people's emotional issues for them. You can give advice and support, but its their problem to solve. Its why when Choco helps me navigate a difficult emotional conversation, she doesn't have it for me, she helps me understand the things I don't understand gives suggestion, but its still up to me to talk to the person and figure things out with them.
You're not planning to on purpose? You're planning on not having a support network? [He looks at Cole with a frown at that.]
I decide what is and isn't worth my time.
Ah, the trust is a problem. I was going to offer I have experience. Strangely, its easier to figure out the emotions in things like Hearts and Dreams. I think because there's no filter. Its easier to read the extreme than what finally gets filtered through. [Also he's willing to get into E V E R Y T H I N G so he understood what he was doing.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
All relationships are about meeting halfway.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
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