It doesn't matter. It just means that you're too close to the issue to step back and actually try to think about it. Because you've already forgotten that this isn't about where he is now, it's that if we weren't here because of Korone being hurt there is a world where he set that goal and met it. What you're describing is a failed goal.
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Main point, you just said that he didn't say he liked you. So where is the lie exactly? Because either you misunderstood him, which you clearly can, or you're lying because you're trauma got pushed. Because I've been talking to MK and not once did he mention saying he likes you. Just that he really wanted to when it was something we were talking through. And he doesn't lie to me.
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Edited 2025-03-17 15:49 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I can "rules lawyer" him making a genuine attempt to like you and not let his issues be yours. And if you actually do still think that he's lying to you now, then I'm clearly a liar too since I told you to your face that he's fine with your treatment of him and says you're better now. Or did that somehow get lost because you're hung up on how him deciding to try because he was sincere was a lie because he fucked up?
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Except its not fine if he's making himself a martyr about it and letting himself be hurt longer when he wants to actually confront me about something!
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
No. He. Does. Not. MK. Believes. You. Were. Completely. Right. About. Everything. That. He. Deserved. It. And being threatened with murder every three days. Because he deserves it because he is the only problem, even for shit he couldn't have known. Do I need to be more clear?
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK had no reason to attach to me and he, in fact, had no attachment or like for me. His efforts were for Macaque's sake.
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Edited 2025-03-17 17:40 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Has it occurred to you that MK also just doesn't like not liking people or being jealous? Because MK doesn't like to be like that. Also, the example I gave you was the only one I have, so there was no closer way.
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That still doesn't promote attachment. And if that was your only option, you really can't fault me for matching that energy. I don't know you don't have other options. Why do you think I went with my neurodivergent mess over the traumatic stuff I've been through? That stuff sucks, but its not trauma, that's overwhelming people.
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've got nothing to say to that because I don't usually try to match energy, just get as close to the point as I can. I don't get it.
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Do you ever have people who just hear you say all that and get distracted from the topic you were on before?
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Only here. Coincidentally, MK is the least likely that's not from my world.
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I stand by what I said. I am both capable of keeping MK in check and of allowing him to be laid into within reason. And considering it bled over into infecting the air of the first home I've tried to build for myself, it wasn't within reason. You have your thoughts on it based on what you know of relationships and bonds, I'm telling you the objective truth from my experience both with MK and with my original partner and the person who wanted to end him to take his life back.
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
An objective truth must be known to matter. How could I have ever reasonably known that? Do people so often ask for your aid in laying into your partner that this should be common knowledge? [He crosses his arms.] You act like I should have known it. But the only way I could have known it was to know you. But I don't and you have stated how little interest you have in connecting to others. So what you can do and what you might do that is atypical of norms can't be factored in. That is not a reasonable thing to expect. Same for Wukong, I don't know him well enough to assume he would act in an atypical way. Because it is atypical and even in my own atypical thinking, I wouldn't think someone would agree to it, so there is no perspective that would get me there that is reasonable and wouldn't risk lowering my ability to insure my own safety.
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Edited 2025-04-01 02:42 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You know what they say about having two nickels? I'd have two if I had one for every time someone wanted to go after someone I care about for reasonable reasons, plus one for being asked to be in on it because I understood the reasons.
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.
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othellovonryan) wrote2033-10-23 10:05 pm
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.