No. He. Does. Not. MK. Believes. You. Were. Completely. Right. About. Everything. That. He. Deserved. It. And being threatened with murder every three days. Because he deserves it because he is the only problem, even for shit he couldn't have known. Do I need to be more clear?
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK had no reason to attach to me and he, in fact, had no attachment or like for me. His efforts were for Macaque's sake.
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Edited 2025-03-17 17:40 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Has it occurred to you that MK also just doesn't like not liking people or being jealous? Because MK doesn't like to be like that. Also, the example I gave you was the only one I have, so there was no closer way.
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That still doesn't promote attachment. And if that was your only option, you really can't fault me for matching that energy. I don't know you don't have other options. Why do you think I went with my neurodivergent mess over the traumatic stuff I've been through? That stuff sucks, but its not trauma, that's overwhelming people.
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've got nothing to say to that because I don't usually try to match energy, just get as close to the point as I can. I don't get it.
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Do you ever have people who just hear you say all that and get distracted from the topic you were on before?
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Only here. Coincidentally, MK is the least likely that's not from my world.
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I stand by what I said. I am both capable of keeping MK in check and of allowing him to be laid into within reason. And considering it bled over into infecting the air of the first home I've tried to build for myself, it wasn't within reason. You have your thoughts on it based on what you know of relationships and bonds, I'm telling you the objective truth from my experience both with MK and with my original partner and the person who wanted to end him to take his life back.
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
An objective truth must be known to matter. How could I have ever reasonably known that? Do people so often ask for your aid in laying into your partner that this should be common knowledge? [He crosses his arms.] You act like I should have known it. But the only way I could have known it was to know you. But I don't and you have stated how little interest you have in connecting to others. So what you can do and what you might do that is atypical of norms can't be factored in. That is not a reasonable thing to expect. Same for Wukong, I don't know him well enough to assume he would act in an atypical way. Because it is atypical and even in my own atypical thinking, I wouldn't think someone would agree to it, so there is no perspective that would get me there that is reasonable and wouldn't risk lowering my ability to insure my own safety.
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Edited 2025-04-01 02:42 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You know what they say about having two nickels? I'd have two if I had one for every time someone wanted to go after someone I care about for reasonable reasons, plus one for being asked to be in on it because I understood the reasons.
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.
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othellovonryan) wrote2033-10-23 10:05 pm
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.