It changes context. Being angry at someone for someone else's sake is only allowed to the extent the person hurt would allow it. There is a level of removal.
My deciding how much MK should be punished for Choco's sake would not be fair to Choco unless she wanted me to give the punishments.
But he hurt me. So I had my own anger. And I would not deal with being lied to again. The most benefit of a doubt I could afford him pointed to a mediator being counterproductive.
Side note, you should talk to someone else about being locked out of lying. Because that sounds like a slippery slope thing that most people would give me a look about, and I have been told I shouldn't think of those kind of things to solve my problems even if they would be easier. [That is actually a sign of his improvement, to NOT subjugate other's will.]
I made the situation where he could be most honest with me and pushed him. I made it clear I wanted him to be honest. I didn't want his catered words and bitten back retorts.
I wanted him angry.
Because then I would know how much of a threat he would be to my family and me.
And yet, even with all that...and everything I did with Relius.
He's lying. [He's stopped pruning, staring at the flowers in front of him.]
Again.
[There is a slight tremor to the ground.]
[He breathes in.]
[Let's it out.]
Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will talk to MK.
Alone.
He deserves a chance to be honest when confronted, but that is something to deal with MK about. I'm not going to apologize to you about my fight with MK.
You have no reason to take my side, but its also why an apology to you doesn't mean anything. You should be biased for MK. But having a fight with MK doesn't mean I've wronged you. Just like MK didn't owe me an apology for hurting Choco.
What I am taking out of all that for MK is I need to talk to him again and see if he really hates me that much.
That would be point two. There is still point three.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It doesn't change the context, it just means I wasn't clear. When I said angry for Korone, I meant angry about what happened because you were hurt too.
And I don't think he is lying. He's taken it all in as it being good now because you were also trying to help him in the end and you came to an understanding, and were entitled to take it in the direction you did. He's being honest that it's something he doesn't want me to be this upset over because you two are in a better place. So no, he doesn't hate you in the slightest. But feel free to check that with him. I'm not here to get between you.
I'm also not looking for anything but for you to understand that this is the second time that your actions have led to me being seriously hurt now. I would say that you took it too far just as quickly even if I had no connection to MK whatsoever and no matter who you forced off the street for this. So don't bring taking sides into this. It's about your actions crippling my life and leaving me with nowhere to turn to deal with it as a...casualty, or...collateral. I'm doing this because Macaque doesn't want me keeping my feelings to myself, because he hopes I'll come away less angry and for no other reason or outcome.
But go on.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You seem to be very judgemental of a fight where you thought it was just because I was angry at MK for Choco, which seemed to be what you DID mean at first? Because if you knew I was also hurt for being lied to, separate from Choco, it seems odd to put the emphasis on that part when talking about this.
You do see how it sounds like you thought I was just angry about Choco, right?
But it does seem odd to be putting a lot of weight on me hurting Macaque, which is fair and valid because I am at fault, and my hurting MK which is less fair and valid because he did start that when you're also very dismissive about it.
Its just...
[He waves a hand in the air.]
You seem to be attempting to scold me about not being...empathetic?
But you are acting like what I went through did not matter, while saying the same thing I went through is crippling your life.
And yes, I do know it hurts to see your loved ones hurt.
But also its a lot of contradictions I am not parsing out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Because you're being literal. You basically summed up what happened to Korone as also hurting you because it proved that MK lied to you and that hurt incredibly. Am I misreading that just because I'm not spelling it out completely? MK hurt Korone in a horrific way that proved he was breaking your trust the whole time.
I already said I'm not dismissing the impact on you, it just doesn't change the impact on me or the fact that it was too much and too far. Since Macaque insists I'm worth talking about this for. The impact on you is no less important, it's a different topic. And if we want to be that specific, Macaque is the one who started all of this and we wouldn't be here at all if he'd avoided the biggest thing I warned him against.
I'm scolding you for thinking you had the only proper way to handle things and being unwilling to acknowledge that you did damage on a level that wasn't needed. Not for your lack of empathy. That's a different deal.
[Donnie comparing their situations causes him to stare at the turtle long and hard for a moment before speaking again.]
Donnie, do you rely on anyone in your family for pure survival? Can you function and take care of yourself properly without them? Can you literally feel their suffering in the air and taste and breathe it? So the air in the place that is supposed to be safe for you is thick with fear and misery that you can't do anything about, so you just live in it with no escape because this is your place? Does your mind break to the point you may never wake up if those connections that make up your life are damaged too much? Not choose not to wake up, to be so literally damaged that you physically can't be conscious anymore because reality has shattered too much and your perception can't take it? Are these things that you risk? Real questions, because I came here to be honest. And if those are the risks from the pain MK caused you, then I'm sorry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I am literal, but even I think its misleading to go 'you were angry at someone for hurting someone' and assume that also accounts 'because that means they were also lying to you.' Do neurotypicals not think that's a leap? Because it sounds like a leap.
[There is a long pause.]
....I mean.
Short answer? Yes.
There is no way to explain that isn't a traumadump.
Part is mystic powers that mean I feel when they die.
As the...temple showed... [His eyes grown distant.]
[There is a larger rumble on his feet and he shakes his head, squeezing his eyes shut. Breathes in deep. Let's it out. The earth stills]
Choco and Eve have been paramount in my continued functionality. Macaque had taken some of the load, but...
But I cannot function long alone.
I have known that....for a very long time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I have no idea what that means besides typical. But I know I'm not typical, so probably not? All I know is I came in with the mind that you were angry, and what happened to Korone was the starting point. Didn't mean it was the end point or even the big point. If she wasn't hurt, we almost definitely wouldn't be here. Right?
Well take your three people and subtract two, because Macaque until recently hasn't really been around because he thought I was telling him I didn't want him at home when I told him I don't want my nightmares to be why he's there instead of with his other loved ones. So I had only MK for touch energy, for healthy food, to manage my nightmares so I don't turn into a monster, for companionship, to and to save me from my coma, and to be ready to do it again while I recovered. And I was forced to live in his pain for that entire time and do nothing for it while I tried to find reality again, while trying to be an adult when I don't know how to do much of anything, and trying to be comfortable being touched by anyone else since I need to survive while trying to help MK through his touch aversion. Among other things. And every day my first ever home felt like wading through misery because I can feel the emotions in the air and they were just...there now.
And if you understand what that's like, then you also know how helpless and exposes I was. And how scared because I couldn't understand what was actually happening to rip away everything that I needed. And you should be able to understand why that makes me angry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Neurotypical means usual mental processes. I am highly neurodivergent, which means my brain is wired different so I perceive things differently.
....and yes, I am aware, mutant turtle means there is no typical wiring, but our behaviors are close enough to human to use them as a basis, especially as my functions are different from my brothers.
The whole wet rag situation is because I literally cannot see whatever these vibes are that people see when they peg someone as lying. I can follow when stories don't make sense. But if someone keeps their story straight, I have no chance.
As for MK's lies, those were always going to come out. He was too resentful and not dealing with his feelings and I have yet to see that not explode one way or the other, especially as I am grating. I suppose you could argue there is a timeline where he doesn't give up his resentment, Relius happens, and he doesn't reveal his anger while being puppetted and Heart Game, and he's so grateful that we helped all his resentment vanished, but that is a very serious roll of the dice. Especially with how much he doesn't like himself.
So ultimately, we would be here in some form.
...
Well.
That is the nightmare.
[He gets the nightmare. He does. The problem is how does he show he understand that? Because he's had times like that.]
[Like when he was with Relius, unable to reach out to the others, and had to shut down the Ninpo hardcore because if it was open, they would arrive and he couldn't help. How his only functionality came from focusing on the job.]
[Or his childhood, when Splinter was suffering from his own demons and how not even dense Donnie could miss the stress of everyone around him during the bad times, and how the moment he realized his genius, he worked and worked and worked to make their home not just a place to survive in, but a place to LIVE in, where winters weren't scary, and where he could get packages delivered, and where they were comfortable.]
[Or in the temple where he felt on the verge of panic at any second, how he attached to people quickly, because he felt like he was sinking into quicksand otherwise. How much Hunter and Shirou and Ed had helped him find some means for gasping breaths until Leo showed up and dragged him from the sinkhole.]
[(Then he got in a fight with Ed and things never felt like they ever recovered and he was treated coldly by others for a misunderstanding that he fixed, but that's never good enough, he isn't good enough for these matters)-]
[He shakes his head.]
Are you...trying to fix that? Because you should.
The process is hard, but its a dangerous game to not try.
It....
You need back up in these matters.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Oh. Well I'm a Lost. I lost the ability to think normally when I was dragged into a knothole...almost 14 years ago? Yeah. A turtle could be as typical or not in my world as anything else, so you being one wasn't even a thought.
And, you might be right, but I might have also had more luck convincing them to trust each other more, since that was a root of the problem. It's a maybe, but not where we were.
[Luckily, the look on Donnie's face and the shift into being able to pick up the shifts in his emotions is enough and Cole softens, more satisfied now.]
If you mean Macaque, we're working on it. Especially on trust. If you mean anything else, then there's not really anything I can do about the rest. So I just deal.
There are only two people in this world who understand the problems I'm dealing with, and that's because they're from my world and deal with my Keeper. My owner, in case that wasn't clear. And MK is the only one who has the power to enter my mind if I go under, so he's the only one who can help me if I get there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Turtles are very much not typical in my world, at least for the part we lived in. There's a Hidden City part of the world, but the mad scientist who created us to be supersoldiers for his plans to exterminate all of humanity lived there, so dad thought it was safer to just hide in the human world. We could run away from most humans, Draxum would have been a lot harder when we were young.
There wasn't a problem of trust between Choco and MK?
[Wait.] You mean Macaque and MK?
Unlikely. You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge a problem. [And MK wasn't acknowledging it.]
...you can? You can get more people. I know it can be very difficult, but it can be done. If I can make friends, a quiet kid like you should make plenty. And people are generally okay with learning touch boundaries if you're upfront. I have touch issues all the time, and communicating it solves the problem usually.
[He hisses at the word owner.] Ah....another to put on The List. [Please excuse the murderous rage. He has heard about Owners before and he is not a fan.]
And do you mean MK's Autumn power or is it something else MK does?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I get that. I'll be running from Huntsmen the rest of my life. I'm sorry that's your situation though.
MK and Macaque. Macaque especially has been resistant to putting his trust in MK, even before the surgery. And taking a different approach. And MK has been afraid to mess up and fail Macaque, so he wouldn't really push for anything and tried to do as he thought Macaque wanted. So the things they were afraid of have been happening and making things worse.
I'm not planning to on purpose. That leads to them being hurt. Especially a good friend. It just happens sometimes. Friendship. [He notices and his face immediately goes back to that "Right, life sucks" expression he often has.] On that note, don't bother yourself with her because it's not worth it.
I mean that and the fact I can trust him there without question, even if he fails at first.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
We did solve the Draxum situation. He almost died trying to commit genocide and then Mikey bullied him into a redemption arc. Now the big concern if the EPF because I don't love a government agency with that much xenophobia in their manuals and the fact they have Sister Kraang [and boy that is some Complex Emotions because there is fear, hatred, and yet a strange undercurrent of...its not quite Love, but adjacent in his emotions] in storage.
That's why communication is important, but communication is a two sided coin. If they're not both willing to be uncomfortable and work through it at the same time, things won't go well.
And its kind of...
Arrogant?
To assume you could have solved their issues for them with a few extra months when MK's resentment was deep enough to attack Choco like that.
You can't solve people's emotional issues for them. You can give advice and support, but its their problem to solve. Its why when Choco helps me navigate a difficult emotional conversation, she doesn't have it for me, she helps me understand the things I don't understand gives suggestion, but its still up to me to talk to the person and figure things out with them.
You're not planning to on purpose? You're planning on not having a support network? [He looks at Cole with a frown at that.]
I decide what is and isn't worth my time.
Ah, the trust is a problem. I was going to offer I have experience. Strangely, its easier to figure out the emotions in things like Hearts and Dreams. I think because there's no filter. Its easier to read the extreme than what finally gets filtered through. [Also he's willing to get into E V E R Y T H I N G so he understood what he was doing.]
Edited 2025-03-17 09:41 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Sounds complicated. [Right up there with being God's target. And those are some complicated feelings alright.]
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Edited 2025-03-17 09:54 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Its still a roll of the dice, especially since his attacking Choco didn't directly tie to Relius targeting him. Between how messed up he was and the Heart Game, there was little chance it would not have come out and that betrayal happened.
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Edited 2025-03-17 10:04 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
No, it would have been the case of MK finding the like for you that he wanted for real. There's a difference between that and truly hating someone, just like you can absolutely despise someone and still love them dearly...and want the hate to not be there. Speaking from experience in one part wanting a family member to kick rocks and the other part of me never wanting him to disappear on me even though he's awful.
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
All relationships are about meeting halfway.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK's way of meeting halfway has been to give in in anyway he can even when it's terrible for him. Because he was made to feel like he was the only one who had to change. Whether that was intended or not. He's been trying this whole time to be what he thinks he's being told he needs to be for Macaque and to keep the peace. And he fucked things up, but is still trying. They both fucked up but are still trying.
They're both dealing with the discomfort, but right now it hasn't truly been helping. No one deals the same and part of supporting them is trying to help them see differently when things aren't fair on either side. And since I literally get to eat their consequences too because it fills the air like too much freshener, it's hard to not pay attention to it and at least try to help. But since I can't, I had to set a boundary instead so I can eat their consequences in silence. Hopefully that'll change some soon, but we'll see.
[He glares bitterly at the table.]
And you can say it sounds fake, but the person I hate refused to learn. He'd cry about how bad he felt for causing us trouble and how he wanted to learn, and then he'd go accidentally let my brother's Keeper know he'd escaped. But he was sorry. Then he got that Keeper summoned and my brother was nearly killed with no way to treat him...and the man I cared for most was destroyed. And I was forced to sell him into servitude just so he'd have a shot at a life when he was done while Toby's dad had to agree to him being experimented on and made an incubator to watch him die. But sorry...and then when he dived headfirst into being eaten, I followed him even though he'd just told me hours before that it was good thing I had gotten my memories back because I was even fucking more useless than he was...because I love him too much to let him eat his consequences. And then he almost got us all killed because he decided to loudly signal our decoy who was fighting a mini-kaiju, while we were all defenseless in the open with no powers.
And I still miss him after all of that. After all the members of our family who were hurt least by him kept shielding and babying him because he's too young to know better. It's not his fault. So yeah, maybe it's fake. But it doesn't feel like it. Because I'd be terrified for this whole city if he turned up...but I'd be glad to see his stupid face is okay.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
People pleasing isn't meeting someone halfway. Its putting the entire onus of the relationship on the other person. To be a people pleaser is to be passive in the relationship, only taking what is offered, but never asking, and that means the person being pleased has to make all the decisions.
Until the pleaser loses it anyway, because their needs aren't being met.
Or the pleased lose it because they know something is wrong and can't figure out what.
Halfway is half of everything. Both parties have to be active in the relationship.
The reason MK feels like he was the only one who had to change is because Macaque already decided to change. He was working on it. He was active in what he wanted and needed and MK chose to lie and pretend. Macaque didn't need to be pushed. He was already working on it.
[He looks confused at Cole goes on about...a lot of that.]
[And there is definitely CONCERN, but also that is a lot to dump on him, and there is a point where there is too much information and too wild for him to show a lot of empathy about. A lot of it is getting chunked into the void for later processing.]
..... [But now he's trying to math the Facts.]
Isn't...
Isn't that just proving my point?
You seem to believe this guy is not sincere in his apologies and wanting to change and how people protecting him from consequences of his actions are only enabling him.
MK's lies turning to truth later is him continuing his people pleasing behavior, but with the added affect he did something that was wrong and faced no consequences for his bad behavior, thus enabling it?
Well, no consequences if he could keep the secret to his grave.
Finding out he was lying at any point would be bad.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Then maybe he should be allowed to actually follow through on his growth and figuring himself out. You haven't been there, seen, or felt the changes and the attempts. Or dealt with most of the consequences from this mess. You weren't there at the start and you definitely didn't start the entire journey. I was, on both ends and still am.
And you're assuming he never would have. That doesn't make it a fact. It's a possibility, but not fact. The only fact in that path would be that he wanted to like you and he put in the work to make it real. That makes it a goal he met. If that's only as valuable as a lie, that's because you can't see past your feelings on it at that point.
And no, Dion wasn't a liar. He was a dangerous level of idiot. He was being genuine, but he couldn't learn or change even though he wanted to stop causing pain. The bad behavior being enabled was not teaching him to stop and think. The enabling was to shield him rather than actually try to help him stop just doing and to stop anyone who tried. And that matters, because he meant well. So as much as I hate him, I can't put all the blame on him. Product of his environment and stuff, right?
The difference is that MK has been trying, self-reflecting, trying to make boundaries so he could step back just a little, and then been discouraged. And the fact is that Macaque and the people who come first for him take up the most of MK's self-reflection space. So he's trying to remake himself to not be the things he's been told are wrong. Or backing down on decisions he tries to make that he feels are the right thing to do. And I'm pretty sure none of you know how much power over him that is. So Macaque, even in MK's head, gets the most credit for trying. Even when he's been outright refusing to take a step back and try a different approach himself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You don't get to decide they're not lies. You weren't hurt by them. You weren't the one attacked because of them. You weren't the one he took advantage of.
MK knows he was hiding things from us and because he chose to do so, he caused harm. Great harm.
And why should I see past my feelings anyway? Why shouldn't I be upset if I'm lied to? Why shouldn't I be upset when someone looks me in the face and says they like me, when they want to toss me off a cliff? I have never met a single person whose pretended to like me who hasn't hurt me greatly. Not my feelings. My family has almost died by my hand because of stuff like that. What good does it do me to decide I shouldn't be upset about it? When is it ever good for me to believe someone likes me when they hate me?
Besides.
He hasn't even met that goal.
So even by your extremely biased definition, he's still a liar.
And to like me, he has to have seen me. The only time he did is when I messed up with Macaque. Hardly much to like then.
[He turns back to his plants.] Before that, it was just what I represented.
Just like you should be mad at someone who never learns their lesson. And shouldn't forgive them for not learning. Part of apologies is learning to be better. That's why I never make the same mistake twice. If I felt the need to apologize, then I make sure I don't have to apologize for the same thing again.
[Now things might be in the same vein, but its never like...palette swap levels of close. At least an outfit change.]
No one is so stupid they never learn. Even I've figured out how to at least mimic some empathy when I literally can't do it. They just haven't found how they learn, though if they're that big of a liability, might be better to put them somewhere out of the way instead of having them in dangerous situations.
I have talked to MK about the issues that have to do with me. Because I'm not his therapist and if I was, he would be royally screwed because I can recognize enough of his issues to know that they're deep.
He would have been well suited to Robin's Egg.
You too, actually.
Anyway, has MK actually talked to a real therapist? And have you told him what you actually need from him, or are you people pleasing to him too?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It doesn't matter. It just means that you're too close to the issue to step back and actually try to think about it. Because you've already forgotten that this isn't about where he is now, it's that if we weren't here because of Korone being hurt there is a world where he set that goal and met it. What you're describing is a failed goal.
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Main point, you just said that he didn't say he liked you. So where is the lie exactly? Because either you misunderstood him, which you clearly can, or you're lying because you're trauma got pushed. Because I've been talking to MK and not once did he mention saying he likes you. Just that he really wanted to when it was something we were talking through. And he doesn't lie to me.
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Edited 2025-03-17 15:49 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I can "rules lawyer" him making a genuine attempt to like you and not let his issues be yours. And if you actually do still think that he's lying to you now, then I'm clearly a liar too since I told you to your face that he's fine with your treatment of him and says you're better now. Or did that somehow get lost because you're hung up on how him deciding to try because he was sincere was a lie because he fucked up?
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Except its not fine if he's making himself a martyr about it and letting himself be hurt longer when he wants to actually confront me about something!
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
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othellovonryan) wrote2033-10-23 10:05 pm
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
My deciding how much MK should be punished for Choco's sake would not be fair to Choco unless she wanted me to give the punishments.
But he hurt me. So I had my own anger. And I would not deal with being lied to again. The most benefit of a doubt I could afford him pointed to a mediator being counterproductive.
Side note, you should talk to someone else about being locked out of lying. Because that sounds like a slippery slope thing that most people would give me a look about, and I have been told I shouldn't think of those kind of things to solve my problems even if they would be easier. [That is actually a sign of his improvement, to NOT subjugate other's will.]
I made the situation where he could be most honest with me and pushed him. I made it clear I wanted him to be honest. I didn't want his catered words and bitten back retorts.
I wanted him angry.
Because then I would know how much of a threat he would be to my family and me.
And yet, even with all that...and everything I did with Relius.
He's lying. [He's stopped pruning, staring at the flowers in front of him.]
Again.
[There is a slight tremor to the ground.]
[He breathes in.]
[Let's it out.]
Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will talk to MK.
Alone.
He deserves a chance to be honest when confronted, but that is something to deal with MK about. I'm not going to apologize to you about my fight with MK.
You have no reason to take my side, but its also why an apology to you doesn't mean anything. You should be biased for MK. But having a fight with MK doesn't mean I've wronged you. Just like MK didn't owe me an apology for hurting Choco.
What I am taking out of all that for MK is I need to talk to him again and see if he really hates me that much.
That would be point two. There is still point three.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And I don't think he is lying. He's taken it all in as it being good now because you were also trying to help him in the end and you came to an understanding, and were entitled to take it in the direction you did. He's being honest that it's something he doesn't want me to be this upset over because you two are in a better place. So no, he doesn't hate you in the slightest. But feel free to check that with him. I'm not here to get between you.
I'm also not looking for anything but for you to understand that this is the second time that your actions have led to me being seriously hurt now. I would say that you took it too far just as quickly even if I had no connection to MK whatsoever and no matter who you forced off the street for this. So don't bring taking sides into this. It's about your actions crippling my life and leaving me with nowhere to turn to deal with it as a...casualty, or...collateral. I'm doing this because Macaque doesn't want me keeping my feelings to myself, because he hopes I'll come away less angry and for no other reason or outcome.
But go on.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You do see how it sounds like you thought I was just angry about Choco, right?
But it does seem odd to be putting a lot of weight on me hurting Macaque, which is fair and valid because I am at fault, and my hurting MK which is less fair and valid because he did start that when you're also very dismissive about it.
Its just...
[He waves a hand in the air.]
You seem to be attempting to scold me about not being...empathetic?
But you are acting like what I went through did not matter, while saying the same thing I went through is crippling your life.
And yes, I do know it hurts to see your loved ones hurt.
But also its a lot of contradictions I am not parsing out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I already said I'm not dismissing the impact on you, it just doesn't change the impact on me or the fact that it was too much and too far. Since Macaque insists I'm worth talking about this for. The impact on you is no less important, it's a different topic. And if we want to be that specific, Macaque is the one who started all of this and we wouldn't be here at all if he'd avoided the biggest thing I warned him against.
I'm scolding you for thinking you had the only proper way to handle things and being unwilling to acknowledge that you did damage on a level that wasn't needed. Not for your lack of empathy. That's a different deal.
[Donnie comparing their situations causes him to stare at the turtle long and hard for a moment before speaking again.]
Donnie, do you rely on anyone in your family for pure survival? Can you function and take care of yourself properly without them? Can you literally feel their suffering in the air and taste and breathe it? So the air in the place that is supposed to be safe for you is thick with fear and misery that you can't do anything about, so you just live in it with no escape because this is your place? Does your mind break to the point you may never wake up if those connections that make up your life are damaged too much? Not choose not to wake up, to be so literally damaged that you physically can't be conscious anymore because reality has shattered too much and your perception can't take it? Are these things that you risk? Real questions, because I came here to be honest. And if those are the risks from the pain MK caused you, then I'm sorry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[There is a long pause.]
....I mean.
Short answer? Yes.
There is no way to explain that isn't a traumadump.
Part is mystic powers that mean I feel when they die.
As the...temple showed... [His eyes grown distant.]
[There is a larger rumble on his feet and he shakes his head, squeezing his eyes shut. Breathes in deep. Let's it out. The earth stills]
Choco and Eve have been paramount in my continued functionality. Macaque had taken some of the load, but...
But I cannot function long alone.
I have known that....for a very long time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Well take your three people and subtract two, because Macaque until recently hasn't really been around because he thought I was telling him I didn't want him at home when I told him I don't want my nightmares to be why he's there instead of with his other loved ones. So I had only MK for touch energy, for healthy food, to manage my nightmares so I don't turn into a monster, for companionship, to and to save me from my coma, and to be ready to do it again while I recovered. And I was forced to live in his pain for that entire time and do nothing for it while I tried to find reality again, while trying to be an adult when I don't know how to do much of anything, and trying to be comfortable being touched by anyone else since I need to survive while trying to help MK through his touch aversion. Among other things. And every day my first ever home felt like wading through misery because I can feel the emotions in the air and they were just...there now.
And if you understand what that's like, then you also know how helpless and exposes I was. And how scared because I couldn't understand what was actually happening to rip away everything that I needed. And you should be able to understand why that makes me angry.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
....and yes, I am aware, mutant turtle means there is no typical wiring, but our behaviors are close enough to human to use them as a basis, especially as my functions are different from my brothers.
The whole wet rag situation is because I literally cannot see whatever these vibes are that people see when they peg someone as lying. I can follow when stories don't make sense. But if someone keeps their story straight, I have no chance.
As for MK's lies, those were always going to come out. He was too resentful and not dealing with his feelings and I have yet to see that not explode one way or the other, especially as I am grating. I suppose you could argue there is a timeline where he doesn't give up his resentment, Relius happens, and he doesn't reveal his anger while being puppetted and Heart Game, and he's so grateful that we helped all his resentment vanished, but that is a very serious roll of the dice. Especially with how much he doesn't like himself.
So ultimately, we would be here in some form.
...
Well.
That is the nightmare.
[He gets the nightmare. He does. The problem is how does he show he understand that? Because he's had times like that.]
[Like when he was with Relius, unable to reach out to the others, and had to shut down the Ninpo hardcore because if it was open, they would arrive and he couldn't help. How his only functionality came from focusing on the job.]
[Or his childhood, when Splinter was suffering from his own demons and how not even dense Donnie could miss the stress of everyone around him during the bad times, and how the moment he realized his genius, he worked and worked and worked to make their home not just a place to survive in, but a place to LIVE in, where winters weren't scary, and where he could get packages delivered, and where they were comfortable.]
[Or in the temple where he felt on the verge of panic at any second, how he attached to people quickly, because he felt like he was sinking into quicksand otherwise. How much Hunter and Shirou and Ed had helped him find some means for gasping breaths until Leo showed up and dragged him from the sinkhole.]
[(Then he got in a fight with Ed and things never felt like they ever recovered and he was treated coldly by others for a misunderstanding that he fixed, but that's never good enough, he isn't good enough for these matters)-]
[He shakes his head.]
Are you...trying to fix that? Because you should.
The process is hard, but its a dangerous game to not try.
It....
You need back up in these matters.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And, you might be right, but I might have also had more luck convincing them to trust each other more, since that was a root of the problem. It's a maybe, but not where we were.
[Luckily, the look on Donnie's face and the shift into being able to pick up the shifts in his emotions is enough and Cole softens, more satisfied now.]
If you mean Macaque, we're working on it. Especially on trust. If you mean anything else, then there's not really anything I can do about the rest. So I just deal.
There are only two people in this world who understand the problems I'm dealing with, and that's because they're from my world and deal with my Keeper. My owner, in case that wasn't clear. And MK is the only one who has the power to enter my mind if I go under, so he's the only one who can help me if I get there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There wasn't a problem of trust between Choco and MK?
[Wait.] You mean Macaque and MK?
Unlikely. You can't fix a problem if you don't acknowledge a problem. [And MK wasn't acknowledging it.]
...you can? You can get more people. I know it can be very difficult, but it can be done. If I can make friends, a quiet kid like you should make plenty. And people are generally okay with learning touch boundaries if you're upfront. I have touch issues all the time, and communicating it solves the problem usually.
[He hisses at the word owner.] Ah....another to put on The List. [Please excuse the murderous rage. He has heard about Owners before and he is not a fan.]
And do you mean MK's Autumn power or is it something else MK does?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK and Macaque. Macaque especially has been resistant to putting his trust in MK, even before the surgery. And taking a different approach. And MK has been afraid to mess up and fail Macaque, so he wouldn't really push for anything and tried to do as he thought Macaque wanted. So the things they were afraid of have been happening and making things worse.
I'm not planning to on purpose. That leads to them being hurt. Especially a good friend. It just happens sometimes. Friendship. [He notices and his face immediately goes back to that "Right, life sucks" expression he often has.] On that note, don't bother yourself with her because it's not worth it.
I mean that and the fact I can trust him there without question, even if he fails at first.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That's why communication is important, but communication is a two sided coin. If they're not both willing to be uncomfortable and work through it at the same time, things won't go well.
And its kind of...
Arrogant?
To assume you could have solved their issues for them with a few extra months when MK's resentment was deep enough to attack Choco like that.
You can't solve people's emotional issues for them. You can give advice and support, but its their problem to solve. Its why when Choco helps me navigate a difficult emotional conversation, she doesn't have it for me, she helps me understand the things I don't understand gives suggestion, but its still up to me to talk to the person and figure things out with them.
You're not planning to on purpose? You're planning on not having a support network? [He looks at Cole with a frown at that.]
I decide what is and isn't worth my time.
Ah, the trust is a problem. I was going to offer I have experience. Strangely, its easier to figure out the emotions in things like Hearts and Dreams. I think because there's no filter. Its easier to read the extreme than what finally gets filtered through. [Also he's willing to get into E V E R Y T H I N G so he understood what he was doing.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
All relationships are about meeting halfway.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
They're both dealing with the discomfort, but right now it hasn't truly been helping. No one deals the same and part of supporting them is trying to help them see differently when things aren't fair on either side. And since I literally get to eat their consequences too because it fills the air like too much freshener, it's hard to not pay attention to it and at least try to help. But since I can't, I had to set a boundary instead so I can eat their consequences in silence. Hopefully that'll change some soon, but we'll see.
[He glares bitterly at the table.]
And you can say it sounds fake, but the person I hate refused to learn. He'd cry about how bad he felt for causing us trouble and how he wanted to learn, and then he'd go accidentally let my brother's Keeper know he'd escaped. But he was sorry. Then he got that Keeper summoned and my brother was nearly killed with no way to treat him...and the man I cared for most was destroyed. And I was forced to sell him into servitude just so he'd have a shot at a life when he was done while Toby's dad had to agree to him being experimented on and made an incubator to watch him die. But sorry...and then when he dived headfirst into being eaten, I followed him even though he'd just told me hours before that it was good thing I had gotten my memories back because I was even fucking more useless than he was...because I love him too much to let him eat his consequences. And then he almost got us all killed because he decided to loudly signal our decoy who was fighting a mini-kaiju, while we were all defenseless in the open with no powers.
And I still miss him after all of that. After all the members of our family who were hurt least by him kept shielding and babying him because he's too young to know better. It's not his fault. So yeah, maybe it's fake. But it doesn't feel like it. Because I'd be terrified for this whole city if he turned up...but I'd be glad to see his stupid face is okay.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Until the pleaser loses it anyway, because their needs aren't being met.
Or the pleased lose it because they know something is wrong and can't figure out what.
Halfway is half of everything. Both parties have to be active in the relationship.
The reason MK feels like he was the only one who had to change is because Macaque already decided to change. He was working on it. He was active in what he wanted and needed and MK chose to lie and pretend. Macaque didn't need to be pushed. He was already working on it.
[He looks confused at Cole goes on about...a lot of that.]
[And there is definitely CONCERN, but also that is a lot to dump on him, and there is a point where there is too much information and too wild for him to show a lot of empathy about. A lot of it is getting chunked into the void for later processing.]
..... [But now he's trying to math the Facts.]
Isn't...
Isn't that just proving my point?
You seem to believe this guy is not sincere in his apologies and wanting to change and how people protecting him from consequences of his actions are only enabling him.
MK's lies turning to truth later is him continuing his people pleasing behavior, but with the added affect he did something that was wrong and faced no consequences for his bad behavior, thus enabling it?
Well, no consequences if he could keep the secret to his grave.
Finding out he was lying at any point would be bad.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And you're assuming he never would have. That doesn't make it a fact. It's a possibility, but not fact. The only fact in that path would be that he wanted to like you and he put in the work to make it real. That makes it a goal he met. If that's only as valuable as a lie, that's because you can't see past your feelings on it at that point.
And no, Dion wasn't a liar. He was a dangerous level of idiot. He was being genuine, but he couldn't learn or change even though he wanted to stop causing pain. The bad behavior being enabled was not teaching him to stop and think. The enabling was to shield him rather than actually try to help him stop just doing and to stop anyone who tried. And that matters, because he meant well. So as much as I hate him, I can't put all the blame on him. Product of his environment and stuff, right?
The difference is that MK has been trying, self-reflecting, trying to make boundaries so he could step back just a little, and then been discouraged. And the fact is that Macaque and the people who come first for him take up the most of MK's self-reflection space. So he's trying to remake himself to not be the things he's been told are wrong. Or backing down on decisions he tries to make that he feels are the right thing to do. And I'm pretty sure none of you know how much power over him that is. So Macaque, even in MK's head, gets the most credit for trying. Even when he's been outright refusing to take a step back and try a different approach himself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK wasn't lying to you.
You don't get to decide they're not lies. You weren't hurt by them. You weren't the one attacked because of them. You weren't the one he took advantage of.
MK knows he was hiding things from us and because he chose to do so, he caused harm. Great harm.
And why should I see past my feelings anyway? Why shouldn't I be upset if I'm lied to? Why shouldn't I be upset when someone looks me in the face and says they like me, when they want to toss me off a cliff? I have never met a single person whose pretended to like me who hasn't hurt me greatly. Not my feelings. My family has almost died by my hand because of stuff like that. What good does it do me to decide I shouldn't be upset about it? When is it ever good for me to believe someone likes me when they hate me?
Besides.
He hasn't even met that goal.
So even by your extremely biased definition, he's still a liar.
And to like me, he has to have seen me. The only time he did is when I messed up with Macaque. Hardly much to like then.
[He turns back to his plants.] Before that, it was just what I represented.
Just like you should be mad at someone who never learns their lesson. And shouldn't forgive them for not learning. Part of apologies is learning to be better. That's why I never make the same mistake twice. If I felt the need to apologize, then I make sure I don't have to apologize for the same thing again.
[Now things might be in the same vein, but its never like...palette swap levels of close. At least an outfit change.]
No one is so stupid they never learn. Even I've figured out how to at least mimic some empathy when I literally can't do it. They just haven't found how they learn, though if they're that big of a liability, might be better to put them somewhere out of the way instead of having them in dangerous situations.
I have talked to MK about the issues that have to do with me. Because I'm not his therapist and if I was, he would be royally screwed because I can recognize enough of his issues to know that they're deep.
He would have been well suited to Robin's Egg.
You too, actually.
Anyway, has MK actually talked to a real therapist? And have you told him what you actually need from him, or are you people pleasing to him too?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)