Sounds complicated. [Right up there with being God's target. And those are some complicated feelings alright.]
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Edited 2025-03-17 09:54 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Its still a roll of the dice, especially since his attacking Choco didn't directly tie to Relius targeting him. Between how messed up he was and the Heart Game, there was little chance it would not have come out and that betrayal happened.
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Edited 2025-03-17 10:04 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
No, it would have been the case of MK finding the like for you that he wanted for real. There's a difference between that and truly hating someone, just like you can absolutely despise someone and still love them dearly...and want the hate to not be there. Speaking from experience in one part wanting a family member to kick rocks and the other part of me never wanting him to disappear on me even though he's awful.
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
All relationships are about meeting halfway.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK's way of meeting halfway has been to give in in anyway he can even when it's terrible for him. Because he was made to feel like he was the only one who had to change. Whether that was intended or not. He's been trying this whole time to be what he thinks he's being told he needs to be for Macaque and to keep the peace. And he fucked things up, but is still trying. They both fucked up but are still trying.
They're both dealing with the discomfort, but right now it hasn't truly been helping. No one deals the same and part of supporting them is trying to help them see differently when things aren't fair on either side. And since I literally get to eat their consequences too because it fills the air like too much freshener, it's hard to not pay attention to it and at least try to help. But since I can't, I had to set a boundary instead so I can eat their consequences in silence. Hopefully that'll change some soon, but we'll see.
[He glares bitterly at the table.]
And you can say it sounds fake, but the person I hate refused to learn. He'd cry about how bad he felt for causing us trouble and how he wanted to learn, and then he'd go accidentally let my brother's Keeper know he'd escaped. But he was sorry. Then he got that Keeper summoned and my brother was nearly killed with no way to treat him...and the man I cared for most was destroyed. And I was forced to sell him into servitude just so he'd have a shot at a life when he was done while Toby's dad had to agree to him being experimented on and made an incubator to watch him die. But sorry...and then when he dived headfirst into being eaten, I followed him even though he'd just told me hours before that it was good thing I had gotten my memories back because I was even fucking more useless than he was...because I love him too much to let him eat his consequences. And then he almost got us all killed because he decided to loudly signal our decoy who was fighting a mini-kaiju, while we were all defenseless in the open with no powers.
And I still miss him after all of that. After all the members of our family who were hurt least by him kept shielding and babying him because he's too young to know better. It's not his fault. So yeah, maybe it's fake. But it doesn't feel like it. Because I'd be terrified for this whole city if he turned up...but I'd be glad to see his stupid face is okay.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
People pleasing isn't meeting someone halfway. Its putting the entire onus of the relationship on the other person. To be a people pleaser is to be passive in the relationship, only taking what is offered, but never asking, and that means the person being pleased has to make all the decisions.
Until the pleaser loses it anyway, because their needs aren't being met.
Or the pleased lose it because they know something is wrong and can't figure out what.
Halfway is half of everything. Both parties have to be active in the relationship.
The reason MK feels like he was the only one who had to change is because Macaque already decided to change. He was working on it. He was active in what he wanted and needed and MK chose to lie and pretend. Macaque didn't need to be pushed. He was already working on it.
[He looks confused at Cole goes on about...a lot of that.]
[And there is definitely CONCERN, but also that is a lot to dump on him, and there is a point where there is too much information and too wild for him to show a lot of empathy about. A lot of it is getting chunked into the void for later processing.]
..... [But now he's trying to math the Facts.]
Isn't...
Isn't that just proving my point?
You seem to believe this guy is not sincere in his apologies and wanting to change and how people protecting him from consequences of his actions are only enabling him.
MK's lies turning to truth later is him continuing his people pleasing behavior, but with the added affect he did something that was wrong and faced no consequences for his bad behavior, thus enabling it?
Well, no consequences if he could keep the secret to his grave.
Finding out he was lying at any point would be bad.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Then maybe he should be allowed to actually follow through on his growth and figuring himself out. You haven't been there, seen, or felt the changes and the attempts. Or dealt with most of the consequences from this mess. You weren't there at the start and you definitely didn't start the entire journey. I was, on both ends and still am.
And you're assuming he never would have. That doesn't make it a fact. It's a possibility, but not fact. The only fact in that path would be that he wanted to like you and he put in the work to make it real. That makes it a goal he met. If that's only as valuable as a lie, that's because you can't see past your feelings on it at that point.
And no, Dion wasn't a liar. He was a dangerous level of idiot. He was being genuine, but he couldn't learn or change even though he wanted to stop causing pain. The bad behavior being enabled was not teaching him to stop and think. The enabling was to shield him rather than actually try to help him stop just doing and to stop anyone who tried. And that matters, because he meant well. So as much as I hate him, I can't put all the blame on him. Product of his environment and stuff, right?
The difference is that MK has been trying, self-reflecting, trying to make boundaries so he could step back just a little, and then been discouraged. And the fact is that Macaque and the people who come first for him take up the most of MK's self-reflection space. So he's trying to remake himself to not be the things he's been told are wrong. Or backing down on decisions he tries to make that he feels are the right thing to do. And I'm pretty sure none of you know how much power over him that is. So Macaque, even in MK's head, gets the most credit for trying. Even when he's been outright refusing to take a step back and try a different approach himself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You don't get to decide they're not lies. You weren't hurt by them. You weren't the one attacked because of them. You weren't the one he took advantage of.
MK knows he was hiding things from us and because he chose to do so, he caused harm. Great harm.
And why should I see past my feelings anyway? Why shouldn't I be upset if I'm lied to? Why shouldn't I be upset when someone looks me in the face and says they like me, when they want to toss me off a cliff? I have never met a single person whose pretended to like me who hasn't hurt me greatly. Not my feelings. My family has almost died by my hand because of stuff like that. What good does it do me to decide I shouldn't be upset about it? When is it ever good for me to believe someone likes me when they hate me?
Besides.
He hasn't even met that goal.
So even by your extremely biased definition, he's still a liar.
And to like me, he has to have seen me. The only time he did is when I messed up with Macaque. Hardly much to like then.
[He turns back to his plants.] Before that, it was just what I represented.
Just like you should be mad at someone who never learns their lesson. And shouldn't forgive them for not learning. Part of apologies is learning to be better. That's why I never make the same mistake twice. If I felt the need to apologize, then I make sure I don't have to apologize for the same thing again.
[Now things might be in the same vein, but its never like...palette swap levels of close. At least an outfit change.]
No one is so stupid they never learn. Even I've figured out how to at least mimic some empathy when I literally can't do it. They just haven't found how they learn, though if they're that big of a liability, might be better to put them somewhere out of the way instead of having them in dangerous situations.
I have talked to MK about the issues that have to do with me. Because I'm not his therapist and if I was, he would be royally screwed because I can recognize enough of his issues to know that they're deep.
He would have been well suited to Robin's Egg.
You too, actually.
Anyway, has MK actually talked to a real therapist? And have you told him what you actually need from him, or are you people pleasing to him too?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It doesn't matter. It just means that you're too close to the issue to step back and actually try to think about it. Because you've already forgotten that this isn't about where he is now, it's that if we weren't here because of Korone being hurt there is a world where he set that goal and met it. What you're describing is a failed goal.
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Main point, you just said that he didn't say he liked you. So where is the lie exactly? Because either you misunderstood him, which you clearly can, or you're lying because you're trauma got pushed. Because I've been talking to MK and not once did he mention saying he likes you. Just that he really wanted to when it was something we were talking through. And he doesn't lie to me.
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Edited 2025-03-17 15:49 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I can "rules lawyer" him making a genuine attempt to like you and not let his issues be yours. And if you actually do still think that he's lying to you now, then I'm clearly a liar too since I told you to your face that he's fine with your treatment of him and says you're better now. Or did that somehow get lost because you're hung up on how him deciding to try because he was sincere was a lie because he fucked up?
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Except its not fine if he's making himself a martyr about it and letting himself be hurt longer when he wants to actually confront me about something!
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
No. He. Does. Not. MK. Believes. You. Were. Completely. Right. About. Everything. That. He. Deserved. It. And being threatened with murder every three days. Because he deserves it because he is the only problem, even for shit he couldn't have known. Do I need to be more clear?
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK had no reason to attach to me and he, in fact, had no attachment or like for me. His efforts were for Macaque's sake.
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Edited 2025-03-17 17:40 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Has it occurred to you that MK also just doesn't like not liking people or being jealous? Because MK doesn't like to be like that. Also, the example I gave you was the only one I have, so there was no closer way.
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
That still doesn't promote attachment. And if that was your only option, you really can't fault me for matching that energy. I don't know you don't have other options. Why do you think I went with my neurodivergent mess over the traumatic stuff I've been through? That stuff sucks, but its not trauma, that's overwhelming people.
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've got nothing to say to that because I don't usually try to match energy, just get as close to the point as I can. I don't get it.
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Do you ever have people who just hear you say all that and get distracted from the topic you were on before?
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Only here. Coincidentally, MK is the least likely that's not from my world.
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I stand by what I said. I am both capable of keeping MK in check and of allowing him to be laid into within reason. And considering it bled over into infecting the air of the first home I've tried to build for myself, it wasn't within reason. You have your thoughts on it based on what you know of relationships and bonds, I'm telling you the objective truth from my experience both with MK and with my original partner and the person who wanted to end him to take his life back.
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
An objective truth must be known to matter. How could I have ever reasonably known that? Do people so often ask for your aid in laying into your partner that this should be common knowledge? [He crosses his arms.] You act like I should have known it. But the only way I could have known it was to know you. But I don't and you have stated how little interest you have in connecting to others. So what you can do and what you might do that is atypical of norms can't be factored in. That is not a reasonable thing to expect. Same for Wukong, I don't know him well enough to assume he would act in an atypical way. Because it is atypical and even in my own atypical thinking, I wouldn't think someone would agree to it, so there is no perspective that would get me there that is reasonable and wouldn't risk lowering my ability to insure my own safety.
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Edited 2025-04-01 02:42 (UTC)
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
You know what they say about having two nickels? I'd have two if I had one for every time someone wanted to go after someone I care about for reasonable reasons, plus one for being asked to be in on it because I understood the reasons.
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.
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othellovonryan) wrote2033-10-23 10:05 pm
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
It's not arrogance. It's hope that I could have convinced them to take those first steps before it got to MK losing it. Because I already know what his deal was and what he wasn't getting that he needed. But Macaque didn't because MK took the risk of not taking the risk of pushing. Macaque's trust issues I'm less sure of how to have helped, but it's possible we would've figured it out.
It's not about doing it for them, it's about helping them help themselves.
And no, I don't look for it because it's not worth it. The harm just isn't.
[He crosses his arms and frowns back.]
I didn't say worth your time, did I? I said it's not worth it. And I get a say in that, because it is my life. You can ignore that because I can't really make you not, but I still get to say as much.
And yeah, trust is the biggest thing because if you can't convince me to want to come back, I won't. That's how Lost work.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And.
Regardless of some very small chance that things aligned where you did manage to solve their deep seated issues, some centuries long, in a few months, or blind luck of the truth not being discovered...
It doesn't change the fact MK lied. All that would change is he didn't get caught.
Is it really the better timeline, where MK pretends he likes people he hates?
I suppose you do get a say in that. [He just has his own ideas and he hates that kind of injustice.]
Just as other people get to decide if you're worth it. [Because this? This line of thinking Donnie knows. Cole is a Robin's Egg, apparently.] And it would be better for MK and Macaque as well.
....I do have experience with that too. [HE. HE HAS SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Fucking Dion and his reckless and making everything so goddamn hard...but Cole thinks about him and misses him...SO MUCH.]
Point being that MK's issue is he wants to please without rocking the boat, and Macaque's was and hopefully stays as a was that he refused to trust MK specifically because he was using old MK opinions to deal with a basically new MK...while still expecting MK to trust him. Macaque has agreed to work on that, and I'm helping MK work on his because I want some form of stability in my home again. I want to at least be able to watch a movie with them both and not feel like everything is about to burn down.
Yeah, they do get to decide that, and I'm allowed to feel it when they get hurt because of me and try not to let it happen. It probably would be better for Macaque at least. But considering he already tried to march off to my world satisfied with protection "to the best of" ability right after hearing that one of my most useful features is people want to take care of me...he hasn't been helping me want to change that.
Glad you get it. But given the fact I'm still not fully on board with having been erased and then brought back? You'd have an uphill battle and basically nothing on your side to help me.
[There are a number of reasons Cole is the way he is, and unfortunately one of them is the regular reinforcement of multiple trauma points through outside factors.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK didn't have a problem with Choco and me at first because of us. It was because what we represented of his relationship. We were a target for his upset feelings. It wasn't until the surgery he had a reason to ACTUALLY hate me, and with that, why would his opinion of me change? He resented me because of things that weren't my doing, and then he did for something that very much was.
And I understand complex family relationships. When you're stuck in a sewer together and no one is the pinnacle of mental health, there are a great many complications. And a great many resentments that get ignored until they lead to people acting like an idiot because oh, how dare they just have a conversation.
[He has many frustrations and hurt about that in particular. He loves his family, but the pain is real.]
I'm rather certain MK's people pleasing tendencies is a symptom than the actual issue. And Macaque is old. Change takes time and he's been pretty speedy for his age. MK needs to slow down, and Macaque needs....well, honestly, he's trying a lot. He may be making mistakes, but he keeps trying.
That's the thing with emotional difficulties. You have to meet people halfway.
Like with my family. I was a difficult child. We didn't know what was wrong with me. Touch aversion, food aversion, overstimulation, shutdowns, there were a lot of things I simply could not deal with and it made things hard some days. There were days I would run off into the tunnels for hours on my own as a child, until Leo eventually found me and then waited until I would finally respond to take me home.
And it would be...easy. It would be easy to keep carrying on like that.
[He's carefully clipping away a plant's dead leaves.]
Throwing a fit, or screaming, or running off. Lashing out. Its easy to do and its easy enough to distract myself from the guilt if I really wanted to.
But it wouldn't have been fair to my family. They were working hard to try and understand me. Understand what I needed. Why I was so volatile. Trying to find things that didn't hurt.
I had to meet them halfway.
I had to apologize when I crossed the lines. Try to bite back on the blow outs long enough to tell them if I needed space or to leave. Try to find the words to communicate why something was bad, and when I couldn't talk, use my hands, and if that was beyond me, than chirping it was. Find tools to make things more bearable. [He tops the headphones of his goggles.] Noise cancellation when the world is too loud. Adjustable lighting. A list of foods I couldn't stand to eat. Things like that.
Learn to ask for help when I simply couldn't deal with something.
And...
Learn to be uncomfortable if it was for them. Maybe I find Mikey's new dish has too strong a fragrance, but I try it anyway to see if I can at least eat it. I don't like magicians, but Leo loves them, and he hates going to places without us. Raph wanted us to train, so I trained, even before heroics got serious.
Sometimes dad needs a reminder of why he gets up in the morning.
If it was too much, I could tell them and they would let me bow out. But I loved them, and I knew they wanted me to at least try.
All relationships are about meeting halfway.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
They're both dealing with the discomfort, but right now it hasn't truly been helping. No one deals the same and part of supporting them is trying to help them see differently when things aren't fair on either side. And since I literally get to eat their consequences too because it fills the air like too much freshener, it's hard to not pay attention to it and at least try to help. But since I can't, I had to set a boundary instead so I can eat their consequences in silence. Hopefully that'll change some soon, but we'll see.
[He glares bitterly at the table.]
And you can say it sounds fake, but the person I hate refused to learn. He'd cry about how bad he felt for causing us trouble and how he wanted to learn, and then he'd go accidentally let my brother's Keeper know he'd escaped. But he was sorry. Then he got that Keeper summoned and my brother was nearly killed with no way to treat him...and the man I cared for most was destroyed. And I was forced to sell him into servitude just so he'd have a shot at a life when he was done while Toby's dad had to agree to him being experimented on and made an incubator to watch him die. But sorry...and then when he dived headfirst into being eaten, I followed him even though he'd just told me hours before that it was good thing I had gotten my memories back because I was even fucking more useless than he was...because I love him too much to let him eat his consequences. And then he almost got us all killed because he decided to loudly signal our decoy who was fighting a mini-kaiju, while we were all defenseless in the open with no powers.
And I still miss him after all of that. After all the members of our family who were hurt least by him kept shielding and babying him because he's too young to know better. It's not his fault. So yeah, maybe it's fake. But it doesn't feel like it. Because I'd be terrified for this whole city if he turned up...but I'd be glad to see his stupid face is okay.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Until the pleaser loses it anyway, because their needs aren't being met.
Or the pleased lose it because they know something is wrong and can't figure out what.
Halfway is half of everything. Both parties have to be active in the relationship.
The reason MK feels like he was the only one who had to change is because Macaque already decided to change. He was working on it. He was active in what he wanted and needed and MK chose to lie and pretend. Macaque didn't need to be pushed. He was already working on it.
[He looks confused at Cole goes on about...a lot of that.]
[And there is definitely CONCERN, but also that is a lot to dump on him, and there is a point where there is too much information and too wild for him to show a lot of empathy about. A lot of it is getting chunked into the void for later processing.]
..... [But now he's trying to math the Facts.]
Isn't...
Isn't that just proving my point?
You seem to believe this guy is not sincere in his apologies and wanting to change and how people protecting him from consequences of his actions are only enabling him.
MK's lies turning to truth later is him continuing his people pleasing behavior, but with the added affect he did something that was wrong and faced no consequences for his bad behavior, thus enabling it?
Well, no consequences if he could keep the secret to his grave.
Finding out he was lying at any point would be bad.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And you're assuming he never would have. That doesn't make it a fact. It's a possibility, but not fact. The only fact in that path would be that he wanted to like you and he put in the work to make it real. That makes it a goal he met. If that's only as valuable as a lie, that's because you can't see past your feelings on it at that point.
And no, Dion wasn't a liar. He was a dangerous level of idiot. He was being genuine, but he couldn't learn or change even though he wanted to stop causing pain. The bad behavior being enabled was not teaching him to stop and think. The enabling was to shield him rather than actually try to help him stop just doing and to stop anyone who tried. And that matters, because he meant well. So as much as I hate him, I can't put all the blame on him. Product of his environment and stuff, right?
The difference is that MK has been trying, self-reflecting, trying to make boundaries so he could step back just a little, and then been discouraged. And the fact is that Macaque and the people who come first for him take up the most of MK's self-reflection space. So he's trying to remake himself to not be the things he's been told are wrong. Or backing down on decisions he tries to make that he feels are the right thing to do. And I'm pretty sure none of you know how much power over him that is. So Macaque, even in MK's head, gets the most credit for trying. Even when he's been outright refusing to take a step back and try a different approach himself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
MK wasn't lying to you.
You don't get to decide they're not lies. You weren't hurt by them. You weren't the one attacked because of them. You weren't the one he took advantage of.
MK knows he was hiding things from us and because he chose to do so, he caused harm. Great harm.
And why should I see past my feelings anyway? Why shouldn't I be upset if I'm lied to? Why shouldn't I be upset when someone looks me in the face and says they like me, when they want to toss me off a cliff? I have never met a single person whose pretended to like me who hasn't hurt me greatly. Not my feelings. My family has almost died by my hand because of stuff like that. What good does it do me to decide I shouldn't be upset about it? When is it ever good for me to believe someone likes me when they hate me?
Besides.
He hasn't even met that goal.
So even by your extremely biased definition, he's still a liar.
And to like me, he has to have seen me. The only time he did is when I messed up with Macaque. Hardly much to like then.
[He turns back to his plants.] Before that, it was just what I represented.
Just like you should be mad at someone who never learns their lesson. And shouldn't forgive them for not learning. Part of apologies is learning to be better. That's why I never make the same mistake twice. If I felt the need to apologize, then I make sure I don't have to apologize for the same thing again.
[Now things might be in the same vein, but its never like...palette swap levels of close. At least an outfit change.]
No one is so stupid they never learn. Even I've figured out how to at least mimic some empathy when I literally can't do it. They just haven't found how they learn, though if they're that big of a liability, might be better to put them somewhere out of the way instead of having them in dangerous situations.
I have talked to MK about the issues that have to do with me. Because I'm not his therapist and if I was, he would be royally screwed because I can recognize enough of his issues to know that they're deep.
He would have been well suited to Robin's Egg.
You too, actually.
Anyway, has MK actually talked to a real therapist? And have you told him what you actually need from him, or are you people pleasing to him too?
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I've had way worse done to me than have someone fail trying to like me genuinely. But I didn't say you shouldn't feel whichever way. I said what his intent was. Besides, did he ever say to you that he likes you?
And I'm mad at two people who made the same mistakes more than once. Dion and a certain turtle who took actions on his own because he's smarter than everyone and can't benefit from someone else. Because you clearly didn't learn enough to not assume you had the right answers again.
And just because you've never met someone too stupid to learn from their mistakes doesn't mean they don't exist. Because I didn't say he can't learn in general. You're not the expert on all things any more than I am.
I've talked to MK about everything outside of the Korone-related stuff until recently and have been since he's started working through these deeper emotions. MK and I have full communication unless he's been told not to talk about something. If I was a people pleaser I'd be pretty terrible at it, not that that has anything to do with anything. And if you want to know that, you can ask him yourself. You have ears and a mouth.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Donnie looks at Cole, incredulous.] Too close? In this hypothetical, he would be lying to me. I'm the one whose being deceived. I'm the one who gets to decide how I feel about that. And even in this hypothetical, the first time he saw me as me was when I hurt his mate, so its still highly unlikely to succeed because without the push of him lying to me, he would have never talked about the surgery, so he would still hate me.
You're describing a hypothetical fantasy that isn't likely to happen because I can admit I'm not an easy person to like and that's without the surgery in the mix. He would just have a lot of negative feelings he would never deal with while dealing with my grating nature.
And he hasn't said he liked me. I haven't assumed he does. I assume he still hates me, even if he can acknowledge I was trying to help.
[He puts down the pruning shears, scowling at Cole.]
One, you don't know anything about me. Two, same mistakes can't encompass that broad of a subject. Because three, I am smarter than everyone else, and sometimes I have to do shit on my own because no one else can. Literally. Do you know many pilots got erased by connecting to a hivemind because they couldn't differentiate themselves from the massive flow of information? Out of the four thousand, five hundred, and seventy-two who tried who weren't part of the hivemind? Two.
And four, I can recognize when I don't have the ability to find the right answer and I do ask for help.
To say its a repeating mistake like I just told you a lie when the mistake is 'decided to do a thing and didn't check in with others' is unfair because I dare you to find a single person who hasn't done that several times in their lifetime without living in a bubble.
Five, I know to communicate in dire situations because I was on a team that regularly played in death games and you got to talk to get through it with some shred of sanity by the end.
And six, you know what happens when I don't have the ability to believe in my own ideas without consulting everyone?
Millions die.
Get trapped in an illusion.
Get possessed by an evil snake god.
Robot take over.
I almost got eaten. More than once.
Possession.
Watching my friends and family die.
So much property damage.
My family has to know how many crimes I committed so we didn't have to live in desperate squalor because they're more moral than I am, and I don't feel bad about stealing from the one percent. If they asked, I'd tell them, but they trust that I'm not doing anything too terrible for it.
If I consulted people on literally everything I did, things would be worse. Sometimes I make a mistake. I learn and don't repeat the mistake. To say its repeating a mistake to make a decision on my own is an unreasonable expectation.
And I already told you I'm planning to talk to MK, so I can add it to the list.
Seven, if you're going to accuse me of lying, don't use your unreasonable standards for it, especially when you're so granular with what counts as lying for MK. A failed goal. Its a lie for me to say I don't repeat mistakes because I happened to make a mistake with how one makes decisions, but oh, he just had a failed goal.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
By the way, for someone who has such big expectations for others to change their views and push aside their traumas, you sure aren't willing to do the same. For someone who calls people arrogant for thinking they could be helping more, you sure do have an ego since you need to point out all the things you've done like that somehow means it makes the times that you're wrong for taking the solo path instead of talking to people who actually know something about what you're trying to do. This wasn't a world-ending situation where millions die if you stop to talk to someone first. This was a moment to have an honest talk with someone that had wronged you and yours, in a situation that blew up in a way you didn't plan for. So you don't have the excuse that people die if you slow down. You can talk all you want about how much smarter you are, but it doesn't mean you know everything especially about people.
And I don't have to call you a liar to call you wrong. You were too smart for your own good twice. Once you were asked to be, once you made the decision yourself. But you still decided you knew best both times and you were wrong. And that's the mistake.
So before you lecture someone about meeting halfway or that they need to be willing to work through their deep issues, maybe extend some of that yourself. Because it sure feels like you come in with mostly bad faith takes and not actually being open yourself.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Are you kidding me? I was obviously talking about his opinion CURRENTLY, after all the blow ups. Not when he was lying to us, and actions are also part of deceptions! You can't rules lawyer him choosing to deceive us.
And honestly?
You're wrong about them being even remotely the same mistake. Like not even in the most general terms is it the same.
Because with Macaque, oh look.
I didn't make the decision on my own. I made it with Macaque. He was the one interested in an idle experimental thought I had and we talked about it and decided to do it. I didn't. WE did.
So look at that.
It wasn't even a solo path.
So I make decisions on my own and its a mistake.
I make decisions with someone else and its a mistake.
At what point am I ever making a decision?
The only two points I can see between these incidents is you got hurt by the fallout, and they are...a mistake that exists.
And I am listing things I have done because you seem to think it matters because you've been traumadumping me this whole conversations so clearly it makes some kind of point in your mind?! I'm matching your energy as best I can!
And if I wasn't willing to do the same, I wouldn't give MK a second chance. I haven't been angry at MK since the confrontation. I'm not even sure I'm angry at him now! It depends if he's lying to my face again!
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
When I say you made the choice, I mean you decided it was a thing you can do fine. And did. Macaque asked and you decided it was a good idea. So yeah, I count that as your own decision. Which doesn't mean I don't think he's to blame. If he had to actually convince you because you didn't think it was a good idea then I'll take that back.
I listed several incidents with one person to show that it is possible for disliking someone to not mean you can't be attached, not to lord my accomplishments around for stuff that has nothing to do with a confrontation with a person that went too far that had nothing immediately at stake. If you can't separate urgent from not, that's not my fault. And the only reason I went into the example was because you weren't open to the possibility and basically still aren't. I didn't say it's always the case or that lies like that never happen, I said that this is one of those situations and here's an example as proof why.
And you're really not, since you were quick to point fingers and jump to conclusions with very little information and asking no clarifying questions before you decided I was making them. And you're still doing it
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And if he fucks up, I'm allowed to be mad. I'm allowed to be hurt. I'm allowed to act for myself because you seem to think that...what? I was going into that, looking to fix him? I wasn't. I was mad. I hadn't decided if I wanted to forgive him. I had to talk to him to decide what I was going to do because I don't go into fights knowing how I'm going to end them. I go into them to figure out what the hell went wrong!
This time, I won't go murder bunker on him because now we have rapport, and I know where he's coming from, and I can prod him into not being a dumb-dumb again, but that doesn't mean it's not upsetting.
Macaque asked me for help. I asked questions, I told him to be sure, he said he was. It wasn't 'hey, open up my brain' and I said 'hop on the operating table.' It was a conversation I had with another person who was sure on what he wanted to do.
At that point, you're asking me to have a full on counsel to make decisions. To doubt having one on one conversations with people. That isn't a reasonable ask. You can ask me to vent if people are good decision people, we're doing that with any teachers after Relius, but Macaque would have passed that.
And I wasn't listing accomplishments, I was listing times I had to make decisions on my own or it turned out worse. Sometimes a time crunch. Sometimes not. You also didn't need to list all that for me to know that. I have daddy issues, for one. Draxum is absolutely a bad decision person for me to interact with, but now he's part of the family. We literally have a room for a person who was part of the cult trying to kill us in our home. You didn't even give me a chance to say I get it without going on a very long and worrying list of things, like someone is supposed to take that without having a lot of complicated and overwhelming feelings. I imagine that's a lot for people who don't have feelings pit in their heart where they yeet all their overwhelming emotions when they can't just meltdown.
Which...
Point four.
[He puts a hand on the table and he leans down to be more on level with Cole's eyes.]
[Notable, he doesn't lean IN.]
[Just to be more LEVEL.]
Say you're mad I hurt you.
None of the stuff about MK or Macaque. Say you're mad that YOU got hurt.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
[Cole is getting tired of saying that MK isn't mad or keeping things secret.]
I didn't say you're not allowed, I said that you took your anger way too far and the damage you helped cause is still there and is still harming my life and how badly that was. I also already said I was angry. I'm not in the mood to spell that out again too.
Point still stands. I don't need a bunch of situations that are a literal million times more urgent than being mad at a person and deciding you didn't want a mediator or any input on approaching things safely so they didn't go too far. That's the big point here.
And. When I first brought it up you made no move to say you got it. You said it sounded fake. Would you have assumed any different if you told me something important and I just said outright that it was fake? Because you've given me every reason to think you'd assume I didn't understand or care.
MK is important to this because as long as he's still hurt, my home isn't safe. And I would've just dealt if not for Macaque. So I'm not separating them from this. Because there is no doing that this time.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
So yes.
It sounded fake.
Because he was never attached to me. He would have no reason to do so save for Macaque's sake and that clearly wasn't enough. In my experience, attaching to people you don't like happens because circumstances force you to bond for continued survival, not because you don't want to make your partner mad.
That is absolutely nothing like the buckwild things you described. Which, again, you're getting on me for using extreme situations, when you did. The. Exact. Same. Thing.
You were also dismissing your own anger and worth.
I'm bad at most emotions, but I got cooked with over a dozen people who talk like that, even my low empathy tail can pick up those signs.
Because all this...all this you're getting on to me about mistakes. Talking like I could have reasonably avoided 'making the same mistake twice' when its not in any conceivable way the same mistake.
You are just....
I don't know.
Afraid? Afraid is usually the answer to these things.
That I'll put stress on it again because I made a decision that was wrong. Because guess what?
People do that.
Even my ego isn't so big as to think I will never make a mistake again and as we established, absolutely nothing was the same about how I went about making either of these mistakes. Other than...thinking I could?
Which is like....ninety-nine percent of mistakes? I don't know how you think most mistakes happen without having people think they could do the thing and it goes awry.
So if your standard is I made a mistake as a repeat...that's it. I don't make mistakes on purpose. I learn from them and don't do it twice, but its a lesson I have to learn, not....the very concept of making a mistake.
So I might put pressure on it.
I might make a mistake.
I don't want to.
But it is impossible to make any kind of guarantees with that broad a standard.
All I can do is....
[He straightens up.]
Is say I'm sorry you were hurt. I did not want you to be hurt. If there is a way I could, reasonably, fix that, I will.
If you're hurting again, you should tell me, so I can try and do what I can.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
My issue, especially in this case was the decision on your own in a situation that wasn't...urgent. If you had talked to anyone before that and then decided that you didn't feel good enough about it then it probably wouldn't be a major sticking point. But everything says you didn't, so I have a problem with it specifically. I'm not saying working alone will always fail, or that you should look for help all the time. But what real actual harm would it have done to just approach some of us and say "Hey, MK really screwed up, and I need to confront that, but I have concerns about doing it without safety measures"? And I mean actual harm.
And I was, for understandable reasons I won't say I'm as important than anyone else. You could probably say I'm scared since this is the first time I've tried to have something of my own and it's...this.
I appreciate the apology, even though I wasn't looking for one. Nothing can be fixed until MK has more support to unlearn everything including what was said for Macaque. And that won't start to happen until it's not okay that it went that far anymore. That's also the only way to clear the emotions flooding the house.
And no promises. I prefer to keep those parts of myself to myself. Maybe someday that'll change but I'm not there.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
There is literally no one else I could have talked to about safety measure that wouldn't be on MK's side, or Macaque, who was already about to be a puddle on the floor. [Flatly.] MK has a very small pool of people who can take him in a fight. I'm the only one in our circle who can do something about MK with preparation who isn't dating him.
[A pause.] At the time. Miyuni and Lucifer are possible contenders, but they weren't here at the time.
You don't really get to decide what is and isn't okay between MK and I. That is a conversation we're going to have.
But I'm not here for MK to be perpetually suffering. Its just the thing we have to figure out between ourselves and you're rather uncharitable to me as it is.
Though his mate not suffering because he's isolated would probably help. [Don't think he's not gonna get on you about that Cole.]
I'm not saying you have to show all your harm, just the harm you think I could help.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Saying that there was no one who could is very loaded without checking, because you're making that judgement based only on assumptions of relationships making it certain that someone can't also be fair and committed..
That wasn't a measure of you and MK, that was a measure of MK being basically beaten into believing that it's okay because he deserves it. Because that is not okay by any stretch, but he can't see that. And that isn't only your influence, which is why I say you did part of the harm and why I didn't say "you two" anywhere.
MK knows me well enough to know that besides my job as a portable private room, I can't focus on anything while things are how they are in every other part. It goes against my self definition and that would hurt me more than help.
Like I said, we'll see eventually. Because my usual response is You can't. I'm not going to promise anything further than we'll see.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
...I am dead certain the vast majority of people would be on the side of "don't ask someone to restrain their partner as you lay into them in a rage." Like I would be very legitimately surprised if you could find two other people who would think THAT'S a good idea on any level. You don't ask someone's partner to leash them so you can be mad at them?????
Who else is beating any of that into MK? My understanding is most people handle him with kid gloves.
Which I suppose could lead for things to be easily beaten in...
Portable private room. What does that even mean?
Have you tried a therapist? There are also medications. I've thought about medications, but I would need insane prescription levels. [He has not quite figured out the fullness of why Come is hit so hard. Hd gets magic is involved, but that doesn't negate potential mood stabilizers.]
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I would've in a heartbeat, so long as it wasn't overkill. But I don't need to restrain or leash him if things got out of control. I can't speak for Wukong, but MK has told me he'll be honest when MK fucks up so there's that.
From what I got, Wash was nice about it so it was just bad timing, consistency, and MK's feeling expendable. And then there's the guy who told MK that he would kill him and then repeat as soon as he came back every time. Who I have resolved not to meet because I do have some powers that can happen out of my control and I'd rather not tempt fate.
It's exactly what it sounds like, a private room that I can do anywhere. So long as the rules are followed.
I have a therapist. But I'm resistant to drugs of any kind. Can't talk about home, but he's helping with other stuff. Slowly.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
But it is very blindsiding and I imagine the distraction is people attempting to figure out the sympathetic approach. If I'm able to get that far, assume there is far more involved from people in regards to that.
As for restraining MK, that is nowhere near typical partner behavior. Again, if I'm able to get that far, I can only imagine how much of a bad idea any typical person would consider it. Calling out your partner is one thing. Not defending them, even as they're being rightfully laid into, is not. People are biased, that's how it usually goes.
And in my experience, it would just make more people upset and bitter.
So no, there was no one else I could ask, because what I understand is common sense for emotions says its bad, and I wasn't trying to make it more complicated like it has in the past.
Wash is bad timing. Wash has had to play politics with people whose hurt his for years, and he knows Choco. Plus he's always been clear if he means to be cruel, there is no doubt that he intends to be cruel. So any cruelty on his part was incidental.
[He frowns.] Whose making death threats? Eve didn't seem in that state.
So like a dimensional pocket?
Ah.
Mood.
If you want adjustments made, I am very good at figuring it out without overdosing people. Even between my brothers, with how small Mikey is compared to Raph, I have a lot of calculations figured out.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
I'm many more times bitter about the damage to my home and well-being this last year, and not being allowed to process it on my own terms without worrying other people than I ever would have been if things weren't how they are now.
A guy named Lott apparently. Since my most dangerous powers are emotion-based, I've opted not to be around him for the foreseeable future, for everyone's safety. Including his.
No, it's a private room that no one but the people it's meant for can find...like when I decide that reality doesn't get to notice me.
I'd rather not. My resistance is more like a dice roll. And I don't choose the results.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
Because MK had proven he could be a physical threat and I wouldn't have any evidence otherwise until I did speak with him.
That was an accidental affect
One I am sorry about. I didn't want to hurt you.
But MK hurt us and I wasn't going to handle him with kid gloves when I could insure my safety on my own than thinking his lovers wouldn't be comforting and assuring him while I gave him his rightful consequences. Because that is also a thing to consider.
I was furious.
I had every right to be furious.
And yelling at him while his partners were patting his back and telling him its okay would have just been aggravating. I deserved to be mad. He chose to do bad things, and he had to face the consequences.
I didn't owe him any kindness.
But I offered it anyway after I got to lay down how much of an asshole he was.
And if he takes someone being mad at him for his choices, he either needs to make better choices, or not take all that to heart so much. Something I can't control for him.
Lott doesn't speak for me either. But I will check in to see what can be done about reigning him in for any future Choco incidents.
....that's an inconvenient constitution.
Re: UN: FreeDyver - Voice (One week after Macaque's talk)
And no, I'm not saying you should have known. I'm saying that you were wrong for not considering it seriously based solely on your experience. I can say you didn't know and that it's wrong you didn't think to check at the same time. I'm not saying you should handle MK with kid gloves, but I am saying you did go overboard. Including into areas that supposedly aren't anyone's business to weigh in on except for MK and Macaque, and did it in a way that's caused harm to MK that's still there. There is a difference.
I have to ask though. Do you tell your partners, your family, or your friends that it's all okay when they fuck up? Do you protect them from every bit of justified anger that comes their way? Because otherwise I can't see why you'd think that would be the case for others. I can say that you're justified in being angry, and I can say that you took it too far. I can also say that both Macaque and I are as much to blame as MK is, and still be understanding of the fact that your anger was justified. I never once said otherwise, and I've been and watched other people be burned so many times by stupid mistakes that shouldn't have been a thing that I have no patience left for people who are...negligent is probably the word I need. Not even myself.
If someone needs to be called out or deserves to be laid into, I'll stand aside and probably even help unless it goes too far. That's my line. That will always be my line and I don't care who I'm dealing with or if I'm the one doing the laying into. My partner, my family, the small child I'm responsible for aren't to not be accountable because that's how things keep happening. So it's better for everyone that the person's made to face it.
[Cole's tone is dead serious, unwavering, and full of conviction. He isn't defending what MK did, doesn't think Donnie's anger was wrong, only his actions. And he has no problem with consequences.]
Being a Lost is inconvenient in general. I'm used to it.